Texas Civil Rights Project - Jim Harrington
Active in the American the Native American church. And after that, we heard Carlos Nikay. No. We didn't. Then we heard Circles Within by Douglas Spotted Eagle.
Speaker 1:Douglas Spotted Eagle is from Valley Junction, Iowa, and he is a flute virtuoso. And after that, Dachte Navequaya, the Comanche writing song from Comanche flute music released on Folkways Folkways records in 1979. And then we heard Robert Tree Cody with Will Klickman from Heart of the Wind, music for Native American flute and drums, Turtle Island Waltz. And we're ending with something from Fire Circle, a 2,006 CD, Ayapi, a y a a p I I. This is gray owl walking.
Speaker 1:Stay tuned to co op radio. The nonviolent Austin radio hour is next with your host Stacy Frazier, and stay tuned to co op radio all day long for great radio. And tomorrow, join us at 09:00 when we begin our membership drive with Pearl's general store. And as I said earlier, next week all of the geographers will be here for our membership drive show. Melinda B, station manager Federico Pacheco, Kim Simpson, and also our newest member Jonas Martinez.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to Gravesite. Thanks for listening to Geography of Sound, and thanks for listening to Community Radio in Austin, Texas. Stay tuned for Stacy Fraser.
Speaker 2:KOOPHD1HD3Hornsby.
Speaker 3:We'll change the sheets in your hotel room. Clean your house, mow your lawn. What would we do if one day all the Mexicans suddenly were gone? Needless to say, we need someone to pay to do stuff that's beneath us to do. Don't tell too.
Speaker 3:He picks the grapes. We drink the juice. We give thanks to Jesus. Who's making a killing with so many willing to give up their families and homes? We'll never invest in their country.
Speaker 3:I suggest I too would be tempted to roam. Who really wants to unscramble the egg laid by the golden goose? We love our lord Jesus, but we don't know what to do with Jesus. He picks the grapes. We drink the juice.
Speaker 3:We feast at the table. We waited on by Jesus. Jesus. They do twice the jobs for half of the pay. The bill died in the senate like some migrant in the dirt.
Speaker 3:It's easy to see the hotel industry are the ones who would really be hurt if we legalize the influx, and thus reduce the flow of those disposable people who make our economy grow. It pips the grapes. We bless the Jews. The blood of Jesus. From the sweat of Jesus, he picks the grapes and all our produce.
Speaker 4:Welcome everyone. Gonna do this one in English today, but I was rolling with the Spanish. You are listening to the Austin Cooperative Hour here on KOOP Community Radio Austin. Thank you for joining us. If you're listening online, we stream everywhere k00p.0rg.
Speaker 4:The Austin Cooperative Hour is a collection of Austin eccentric news and public affairs programs covering diverse topics. And our show this week is nonviolent Austin radio hour. I am your host, Stacey Frazier. My pronouns are she and they. And this show engages our community on principles and practice of non violence.
Speaker 4:And we are rooted in the will and skill of doctor Martin Luther King junior, and many of our movement ancestors who have known the truth that love and justice don't require violence and in fact cannot exist in violence. I am joined in this circle today by Lisa Rogers, who you just heard, and Jim Crosby, brother Robert Tyrone Lily, and a very special guest today, civil rights icon, Jim Harrington. So everybody's gonna it's a crowded and delicious and exciting show today. I'm I'm ready to dive in. So Lisa, what did you just play for us?
Speaker 5:I that song was by way of of talking about an event that we're having at Princeton Palace on set on Saturday, September 13 from five to nine, which is a fun fund and awareness raiser for Casa Marianella and the Austin Sanctuary Network. Awesome. All are invited.
Speaker 4:And I just learned that if you Google maps Princeton Palace, you will find it.
Speaker 5:That's right.
Speaker 4:That's right.
Speaker 5:That's right.
Speaker 6:2505 Princeton Drive.
Speaker 5:And interestingly, the following weekend, Jim is helping co produce the third annual Peace and Justice Fest at the same location. Music all afternoon. All are in oh, I'm sorry. All are invited.
Speaker 4:That's right. You're invited. It is a kickoff of the season of Campaign Nonviolence Action Days. So I am on the Pacha Benet National team, and Jim is also on the board hanging out there. And we, we have over 5,000 actions, nonviolent actions registered on campaignnonviolence.org right now.
Speaker 4:And so, it's gonna happen September 21, and our peace and justice fest is gonna happen on that first day of campaign non violence action days and it's gonna run all the way to October 2 Jim
Speaker 6:you'll be hearing more about it yeah in the the actually this is our last time before that happens in it.
Speaker 4:That's right.
Speaker 6:Yeah, we'll definitely be getting their word out more about the peace and justice fest and Other things that will be happening. Yeah, So
Speaker 4:Let's just keep in the clockwise. Why don't you introduce yourself, Jim?
Speaker 6:Okay. Jim Crosby, founder of Nonviolent Austin and co hosting. Glad to be
Speaker 4:here. Awesome. The second Jim in the room, Jim Harrington. Not the second in rank or priority, but clockwise order. Hi, Jim.
Speaker 7:Hi. Nice to be here with such great people.
Speaker 4:Yeah. How will you how how will you introduce yourself today?
Speaker 7:Wow. Human rights stop right there.
Speaker 8:So
Speaker 6:You'll learn all about him. Our interviewee.
Speaker 4:That's alright. Our guest of honor.
Speaker 8:And I'll say peace and blessings to everyone out there in the listening audience. My name is brother Rob Lilly, Robert Tyrone Lilly, but I prefer brother Rob. And I will introduce myself today as one who cares about humanity and one who values the opportunity to live free in a land that has not quite lived up to that ideal. Right.
Speaker 6:I spent my Labor Day weekend reading through a brand new book. It's actually an early release copy that Jim arranged for us. And it's called The Texas Civil Rights Project, How We Built a Social Justice Movement by Jim Harrington.
Speaker 8:Interesting.
Speaker 6:And it's very interesting and very well written. I enjoyed it. And, Jim, I was impressed as I read through to learn about how many books you've written. How many is it now?
Speaker 7:I I think this is six. Okay. I think.
Speaker 6:I hope but in the hour we get to the one on Turkey because I was fascinated by that. There's something I did not know about you and your experience. But I wondered if we could start with either you or me reading your quote that you say you often use on the stump, so to speak, by Robert Kennedy. Would you read that to us and and tell us why you've why you've used it as you have?
Speaker 7:So this is the good Robert Kennedy.
Speaker 8:Mhmm.
Speaker 7:Right? This is the guy who would have been president had he not been assassinated. So this is a few men are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of their colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet moral courage is the one essential and vital quality for those who would seek to change a world that yields most painfully to change.
Speaker 7:I believe that in this generation those with the courage to enter the conflict will find themselves with companions in every corner of the globe. So I I actually put this on the back of my bar card when I became a lawyer. I've carried it with me for fifty years and I'd actually used it in sermon on Sunday. So the and the reason I like that is because I think that what's really important for us to realize is that we have to raise our voice. We have to have that moral courage.
Speaker 7:But there are people all around the world doing this too. Right? The other part of that quote that Kennedy used was the tsunami analogy. Right? Every time somebody does something just, it sends out a ripple and a ripple and a ripple, and then soon it becomes that tsunami that nobody can stop.
Speaker 7:And I think it it makes it pretty clear that we all have a role, to play, but we've gotta have the courage, and a lot of people don't have the courage. Kennedy gave this at the University of Durban when he was running for president, when you used to have to travel and build your foreign policy cred. And it was the days of apartheid, so he had to choose between a black college or a white college. And he actually chose the white college because they were the people who held the power and the change depended on them, you know, confronting their government And that's where this comes up, the the moral courage that they needed and that at that time, you know, that the apartheid boycott, if you wanna call it, that was going on around the world was beginning. So it was it was sort of joining hands with in this courage and under and understanding that you're not alone.
Speaker 7:You know, that there's a whole community.
Speaker 6:1968. Right?
Speaker 7:Right.
Speaker 8:Yep.
Speaker 6:Well, of dates, 1973 and 1983, just to get get the beginning of a broad sweep of your book, tell us how you got to the Rio Grande Valley and how you got from there to Austin.
Speaker 7:So I got to the Rio Grande Valley. I mean, all there's just a whole slew of flukes that go on in my life that bring me here. And so I I took Spanish in high school that I had not planned on taking but I was assigned. I was in the seminary at that time. You didn't have a lot of choice but learning Spanish then gave me opportunity to do summer work because they're migrant farm workers in Michigan.
Speaker 7:I did that I believe it was seven years and they were all from Texas. The Valley, basically.
Speaker 6:So this is through your high school and college career?
Speaker 7:Yes. And into law school. So I did that all that time. So the at that time to the farm worker movement was really big but everybody was going to California to volunteer. So I said, well, you know, I want I wanna be working in the movement, but I'm gonna go to where I know the people.
Speaker 7:Because everybody's going to California, certainly, and they could use somebody to come to Texas. So that's that's how I ended up.
Speaker 6:And by knowing the people, do you mean that most of the migrants you worked with in Michigan had come up from Texas?
Speaker 7:Yes. Oh, yeah. Virtually all the so the part of Michigan I worked in had, during the summer, it'd be 25 to 30,000 farm workers, and they would basically be in three counties picking berries. All toll was about 200,000 that came into Michigan. And they're all coming from Texas for all practical purposes.
Speaker 7:And that's how I got to know people. Right? And that's why I decided that's where I'm gonna go when I get out of law school. So yeah. So I I ended up in law school getting another fluke.
Speaker 7:So I was gonna teach philosophy, I decided. And then I thought and I realized and I think this is subconscious because one morning, I woke up when I was in grad school studying philosophy. I used to get up and watch Underdog in the morning, the old Underdog on Saturday mornings, but never forget. I sat right up in bed that morning and said, well, you need to be a lawyer. And so I finished my master's, and I went to law school.
Speaker 7:I was already in grad school in New Mexico for a PhD. But I didn't realize until I was writing the book that that was sort of an interesting name. Right? Underdog. That would be what I'd be doing for the rest of my life.
Speaker 7:It took me about fifty years to realize that. But that that like I said, there's all kinds of flukes that went on. You wanna call it that. If you wanna call them flukes. But that's how I ended up in Texas.
Speaker 7:And I was there in the valley for ten years, and I didn't ever plan on leaving the valley. I thought he would be there the rest of my life, but this job opportunity opened up with the Texas Civil Liberties Union. And twice they asked me to take it. The second time, I took it, you know, and came to Austin because it gave me I think I was looking at it as the opportunity to do statewide what I was doing in South Texas and People kind of encouraged me to do that. So I did it and I came here I worked for the TCLU for a few years.
Speaker 7:We we had a philosophical fallout
Speaker 8:TCLU stands for?
Speaker 7:Texas Civil Liberties Union.
Speaker 8:Mhmm. Thank you.
Speaker 7:And so then I started the Texas Civil Rights Project. And then by the time I retired, we had we ended up with 40 staff and six offices, two on the border. So yeah.
Speaker 8:I just wanted real quick. This is a side note not to take away from the direction that Jim is going in, but I can relate to you on that idea. You used the word fluke. And I've been thinking about it from a different not slightly different language, but I think the same point of view. I think about how I got to Austin.
Speaker 8:And now that I'm married, I have a son, I have a home, I'm residing in this beautiful community in Pflugerville. And I remember a point several years ago where literally decided to leave the city I was residing in. Just one day I just said, you know what? I can't do it anymore. I'm gone.
Speaker 8:And as I'm driving down the road, called my sister on the phone and tell her I'm leaving this city. But now the city I was going back to, I suspected I probably would not have lived because of the choices I was making. But I called my sister and she said, no. Go back. And normally I don't listen to my sister.
Speaker 8:Just being quite candid.
Speaker 4:Are we talking about Dare?
Speaker 8:Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Listen to her.
Speaker 8:I listen to her now more than I did before. She can't hear this today though. But I went back and I got arrested when I went back, maybe a day or so later. And number of events occurred after that. But all of these events that I look at now in hindsight, in the moment, generally speaking, I think we would call those bad events.
Speaker 8:Right? Bad things that have happened to us. But the truth is if that thing didn't happen, then the change that occurred in my life more than likely would not have happened. And so it's in that respect that I that I can identify with your your point. You used the term fluke.
Speaker 8:I don't necessarily know what to call it today, but I know that bad is not what I wanna call those moments.
Speaker 4:Mhmm. If you're just tuning in, you are listening to Nonviolent Austin Radio Hour here on Co op Community Radio, ninety one point seven FM Austin, and streaming online k00p.0rg. You've got the the usual suspects in here today plus Jim Harrington. And we've started to unpack your history, your journey through as told by the book that Texas civil rights project that is coming out. I I just have a curious question and oh, and I I call those flukes, I borrowed this from my best friend, cosmic tickles.
Speaker 4:So it's a cosmic tickle, perhaps. Where where did you spend most of your time in South Texas? Were there a few places that you oscillated or did you have a one main
Speaker 7:No we covered the valley which is basically the three counties that are in the southeastern most tip. Hidalgo, Cameron, Willoughsey. We also went over into Starr County. So I went I came down to work with the United Farm Workers in Texas and they had gotten started there because of the farm workers strike in in Starr County La Cocita Farms in '66 and '67. And so that was who I wanted to work with when I decided I was gonna come to Texas so I wrote them in another fluke.
Speaker 7:The lawyer who was there was getting ready to leave so I fit right in to that to that place.
Speaker 4:You mentioned courage earlier how how did you cultivate how was courage cultivated in your life to even come down to Texas? Like if you think back on a personal level, where did that courage come from?
Speaker 7:Well, you know, I don't know. I mean, you always wonder, of course, how you end up to be who you are. I think in my I think I drew a few things I think from my grandmother and my parents. So my dad would be a person who stood up for what he believed in. I saw him do that a couple times.
Speaker 7:That was, you know, to me embarrassing as a kid. But I think my grandmother was the one who really inspired me with the idea of helping people and being of service to people. She was very generous of course with us grandkids, but and we were six. But, she also, like, gave away all her money and she, you know, had very little that she kept for herself. And she would go visit people.
Speaker 7:She could she did not drive. When she was learning how to drive, she ran you know, this is way back in the thirties, I guess, you know, and what the cars are like. But she ran into a ditch. So it freaked her out so much that she never drove again. So that's to say that she would walk to the hospital to see people or take the bus you know to go out you know and and that that's just the kind of person that that she was so.
Speaker 7:But I always had it in my mind. I mean nobody's gonna believe this, but I'm I'm actually an introvert. But so so you ought to how you come out of that is you got to do what you think you got to do and you have to really push yourself into it. Right? And I think that's where I sort of and and when you're a lawyer representing people or farm workers, it's not about you, your introversion.
Speaker 7:Right? It's that you're representing them and you have to be their spokesperson. You're the one that knows how to deal with the system and they depend on you so you have to do it. You don't really have a choice. You do it.
Speaker 7:So I think after all those years I had plenty of practice doing that and now
Speaker 6:When Stacy asked that question I thought immediately, okay, what's the relationship between courage and compassion and your your response kinda redoubles my my thinking about just that connection. You know? Sounds like your your courage has been driven by your compassion. Yeah.
Speaker 7:I mean, yes. Totally. That's a good point. I think that's a really good point. Right?
Speaker 7:And I think that's what Kennedy is talking about in that quote. Right? He's talking about when he's talking about that moral courage, he's talking about that compassion that we're all working together. Right? I think he he's pulled that to together.
Speaker 7:We're not talking he distinguishes right. This isn't about bravery in a battle or just being intelligent, having great intelligence, but it's about us all working together, having that courage. And this day and age is so important because how many people will say right now, well, what's going on with the with immigration is awful. Just awful. How they're breaking up families and taking people off the streets and breaking people's cars, all of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 7:But that's not having moral courage to sit around. I mean you gotta do something. You have to take some action. You have to speak out. Right?
Speaker 7:You've gotta do that. And I think that's what that quote from Kennedy calls us to do is to have that that moral moral courage that he is the way that he phrases it.
Speaker 6:Well you just made me think this is not part of my three pages of questions from reading reading your book but tell a little bit about what you and people that you're working with have been doing of late as far as responding to this situation.
Speaker 7:So what we've been doing so we have a group of volunteers, about 60 people now and we do powers of attorney workshops for parents who are likely to get deported so that it gives custody to the kids of somebody like a relative over the kids the minute it happens you know to get them prepared. But think about the kinds of discussions you have to have with your kids you know. And we're talking about small kids by and large. What do you do if you come home and your parents aren't here or whatever you're driving and they pull them out of the car and you're sitting there by yourself you know. So we've done these powers of attorney for 84 families right now which sounds like a lot but we're we're actually talking about 400,000 families that can be affected by ICE.
Speaker 7:And, but you know all these people who have come forward to volunteer is very impressive. Know, giving their time. We've done we have like six of these workshops coming up within the next month. So we spent a lot of time on that.
Speaker 8:I think that's fantastic. Jim, I know you've read the book in its entirety. Mhmm. And I don't know audience if you heard him mention that he wrote down three pages of questions. And when I looked at the book I see nothing but little tape markings of the pages that he's indicated his inquiries from.
Speaker 8:So I've only read one chapter and I'm gonna be prepared to go into that chapter momentarily. But you know, one thing I wanna say is is as we explore the book a little bit more closely is and again, we're talking about the Texas Civil Rights Project by Jim Harrington. New book getting ready to drop on the sixteenth officially. But in my reading of the book, just the one chapter that I read, what stood out to me was I'm new to Austin. I haven't lived here multiple years.
Speaker 8:I don't have generations of history in this community. But I've, in my time here, caught whispers of events that have shaped the consciousness and the makeup of the communities that I'm closest to in this community. So or the populations that I'm closest to in this community. And so as I as I read the book, I I I had the vivid recollection or the awareness that I'm reading a book of history. I'm reading a book of history that pertains to an environment that I'm profoundly intimate and connected to now.
Speaker 8:And so, you know, why why through the lens of history? What what what prompted that that that lens to be the one that you wrote through? Obviously, you lived these events, but I'm sure there was more for each one of these stories.
Speaker 7:So my my whole I didn't wanna write this. I was coaxed into this or actually somebody called up UT Press and got me connected. Mhmm.
Speaker 8:Mhmm.
Speaker 7:But the reason I decided to do it is I wanted to tell the stories of the people that I worked with because they were the heroes. Right? I was the lawyer but they were the heroes. They're the ones who made the sacrifices. Just like, all of people gone before us in the history of human rights in their country that have suffered and have been killed and lynched and shot in the back.
Speaker 7:So I wanted to tell their stories because for me it was a way of sort of keeping their story alive because this wasn't the story that was gonna get in the history books. And, that was the approach that I I took and UT press did not particularly like that. They said this is a memoir. You're supposed to be writing about yourself. So we compromised and I tried to that's why I tried to tell a lot of funny stories because that made them happy.
Speaker 7:They didn't have to spend a lot of time and I had to do that first chapter about how I got to the valley. But my purpose of the my purpose of the book was to tell a people's story. Number one. And number two, how they may change by organizing. That organizing was the key here, you know.
Speaker 7:And the third thing I wrote it for lawyers so that they don't get lawyer this will be stunning to you. I'm sure lawyers can be pretty elitist. And the idea isn't that the people come to your office, but you have to be out in the community with the people. That's where you find out what the the greatest problems are that they're facing the challenges. And as a as an organizing tactic, we always did our best to work with organizations.
Speaker 7:It wasn't to do the and this is part of the the philosophical difference they had with the ACLU. It wasn't just to take a case because it was a stunning case, but what can you do working with the community? Because you want the community to succeed and also if you make change through lawsuit you have to stay on the backs of the people that you have sued to make sure they don't you know,
Speaker 8:go Backslide.
Speaker 7:Backslide. Right word. And you know that if if the community you're dealing, if you have a community organization, they they're gonna relish their victory and they're gonna make sure that it stays in place. You know? So those are some of the reasons that I behind writing the book and trying to write it to the way that I I did.
Speaker 8:One more if I may. You mentioned the name and I don't wanna put you on the spot because I mean you wrote a lot in the book and so if there are elements of it that you don't recall then I understand. But you mentioned Sofia King. I've heard that name in quite a few spaces that I've been a part of. I only read one little section in the chapter on police brutality.
Speaker 8:Why why her story? What was that give us a little recollection about Sofia King's story.
Speaker 7:So there are a couple things going on with Sofia King's story. One is the the general issue of cops and keeping them in check. You know, and because any anybody that has power will abuse power. We know that. And then so we have a hit we had a huge history of suing police around the con around the state of Texas including Austin despite how progressive Austin says it is.
Speaker 7:The so that was part of this. But the other part of this, we also did a lot of, litigation for people with disabilities and people with disabilities have good organizing groups here in Texas. And one of them, one of the issues is what do cops do when they're dealing with people who have mental disabilities. 20% of the calls that cops get are basically people that are going through some sort of mental health crisis and do you think they have any training how to do it? And of course the answer is no except for Travis County Sheriff's Department as one of the best in the country.
Speaker 7:And they will go out without weapons, without a uniform, and just in civilian clothes and talk and talk and talk. It's all about de escalation. It works. So Austin, the city of Austin, had a contract with with Travis County to handle the mental health calls. And this police chief at that time, Stan Kneed, broke the contract.
Speaker 7:So Nelson Linder, NAACP, and I go over and meet with the police chief. And say why'd you do that because this is one of the best in the country. He said well we're gonna do it better. A year later Sophia King is killed on a mental health call. They knew she was mentally ill.
Speaker 7:She had been institutionalized a number of times. She was on their computer as someone has mental and they did everything wrong and she ended up dead. And do you think APD had done their better than Travis County program? They hadn't done anything. So they put out a report a year and a half later basically admitting they hadn't done anything.
Speaker 7:And that was why we were involved in Sofia King in the beginning because they had broken that contract and everything they did. And what happened to Sofia King is what happens to so many people. You know? She was sort of kind of exemplified the problem that we were trying to deal with. So that was why we we got involved in it.
Speaker 8:And food
Speaker 4:Sorry I'm gonna pause this. We have a few station community announcements. Mhmm. And I'm gonna let us stew on that, and we'll be right back.
Speaker 7:And my covers.
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Speaker 4:You are listening to Co op Community Radio nonviolent Austin radio hour either on your FM dial ninety one point seven FM or you're listening online k00p.0rg and we have a a rippling out audience. It's it's growing so spread the word. We're here every month. Let's, let's keep going. Jim Crosby.
Speaker 6:Yeah, Jim. I wanted to to pick up on that and and you know, kind of question that's really bubbled up for me through the the reading and our conversation so far is the relationship for you between telling people stories and, you know, being proximate, was that your word, in the community? And at the same time, maybe increasingly through your career, working on class action suits. What's the relationship between kind of those things?
Speaker 7:Well, being proximate is the way is, the way that, Brian Stevenson frames this. Right? That's the pithy phrase that he uses. It took me a long time to, describe it in a larger context until I saw his quote, But you gotta be out in the community. You know?
Speaker 7:You have to be out. You have to live in the community. I've always lived in the community where you know, deliberately for a whole variety of reasons. You see the problems, but you're also building community. I remember in the valley, you know, that your car broke down and all your neighbors helped you fix And I wanted to be living in that community.
Speaker 7:And I think you have to do that. If you're gonna work in Austin, you're gonna work in East Austin, you have to live in East Austin. You can't just live over you know Westlake and then drive over. So that was always the the deal. You know and I think and of course in the farm worker movement, know, you live people lived out in what we call colonia, sort of like rural ghettos, like 200 of them in the valley.
Speaker 7:They're extremely poor. And often they didn't even have municipal services. A lot of them didn't even have drinking water, if you can imagine.
Speaker 6:Paved roads.
Speaker 7:Or paved roads. So but the other so a class action is more of a legal tactic that you use because it gives you broader relief in the sense let's say if you make a class action when you're suing the cops, then what you do when you get around to settling it or winning it is that you can have broader relief. So you can require a certain amount of training or you can require some kind of monitoring. So you're raising it out of the level saying this is just an individual's problem to this is a community problem. Right?
Speaker 7:So it that happens to be a a pretty good, legal tactic that you can use as a as a lawyer helping people.
Speaker 6:Tell a little if you would. Rob mentioned the the later chapter on police brutality, but I wanted to go back to McAllen and the sea shift. Can you tell some of that story?
Speaker 7:Yeah. The sea shift animals. This is what the evening shift called themselves, and they were proud of it. And they
Speaker 6:McAllen Police Department.
Speaker 7:McAllen Police Department. The sea shift animals. And they didn't pick it because they were soft cuddly animals. They were brutal. And, it's it's so ironic how we kind of fell into this.
Speaker 7:They were I mean I knew I was getting all these complaints that there was all kinds of brutality going on in the police department. People getting beat up all the time. It turned out, we discovered after the city denied this for a long time, that there were actually videos of them beating up people in the booking area. 72 videos, in fact. And, we finally got them released through class action.
Speaker 7:And, you know, they played all around the world, actually. People had seen them in Paris because they were so brutal. So brutal. And then we found out as we got more into the case that they caught they would check the c shift animals were picked by their captain or whatever, sergeant at that time, to for their brutality. You know, to live up to that name.
Speaker 7:And they would have parties and they would check out the videos and watch the videos at their parties. I mean, so that was pretty bad. Pretty bad. That was actually, so when we settled that case, we had, one of the things that we had a police review board and which did not work and is I I've always paid attention to this and other lawsuits and stuff. They just don't work.
Speaker 7:You know, they're just structurally not set up to work. You know, Austin, we pay like $600,000 a year I think for our police monitor and it doesn't really it doesn't work because of, you know, who gets to choose who's on it and what are the, you know, the restrictions they're gonna have and stuff like that. Yeah. But it it it is and I think what I've learned about suing so many cops over the years that nothing really works unless you can hold the supervisor liable for what's happening on the supervisor's shift. And under federal law you can't do that.
Speaker 7:So you have to figure out how to if there's some way to get around that. That makes it harder in a federal lawsuit to hold the to make that change because you can't hold the supervisor liable unless the supervisor's deliberately participating in the in the brutality. And it's like we do in the private sector. Right? If somebody's screwing up and and it's because the person supervising them isn't doing the right thing then the supervisor gets fired or shuffled around somewhere.
Speaker 7:Whatever. But because we lack that ability I think in the police department is that the monitors don't I I just don't think they're very effective and I've watched them all around the country because of my initial experience to see if we could ever figure out how to do it. And I think training, another thing that we did, I talked about this in the book, when we started settling these cases you know sooner or later they'd all settle or we'd win them. We had a pretty good track record. But one of the things that we would do is say well you need to have more training which sounds good except that I learned that cops don't take it seriously.
Speaker 7:If imposed by litigation then they don't take it seriously. So we had cases for example training in San Antonio that in terms of domestic violence how should the cops respond to domestic violence? And the cops would just say, I was talking to one of the trainers, a woman that I know who does this. This is her area. And she says the cops would just sit there and make you know sexist comments or laugh or they just don't that's why I think at the end of the day, I've come back to the supervisor has to you have to figure out how to hold the supervisor liable.
Speaker 8:I'm gonna chime in on that. Not necessarily response to the entire message, but I'm an organizer, been trained as an organizer. I've had several organizational encounters with training, one through PECO, the other one through the Midwest Academy. And I remember as I was, you know, journeying through this path of of of exploring what does it mean to bring about social change. I remember thinking, what makes this particular so so in the MidWest Academy, they give you a spectrum of ways in which society can change.
Speaker 8:Right? You have education on one end of the expect self help on one end of the spectrum. You have education. You have policy change. You have and this is not an order.
Speaker 8:But I I remember wrestling with what makes direct service any less important than structural change through policy, advocacy change. Right? And, of course, I still wrestle with that because, you know, being a nonviolent practitioner grounded in the Kingian philosophy, you know, doctor King, he pushed for social change, but he understood that that change would not really happen until people's hearts changed. Where do you stand with that that logic? Obviously, you're you're because you I think you're from what I'm hearing you, you hold you you're you're a man of the cloth as well as a legal scholar or a legal practitioner.
Speaker 8:So how do you how do you reconcile that?
Speaker 7:So I I am a firm believer that you can use law to change people's hearts.
Speaker 8:Elaborate.
Speaker 7:I watched this. I saw I used to teach an evening class at UT for years and years and years and UT at that time of course until we get to Trump is trying to respond to having a more diverse student body, changing policies that are supporting diversity, supporting and I could see over the period of time how it changed the the students had changed. You know? And we've seen that. I mean even though Trump is trying to cut back on what he calls DEI diversity, he's never he'll do a lot of it.
Speaker 7:It'll hurt us a lot. But the idea is now in our society that you have to have diversity. It's now not very good but the civil rights movement opened that up and it did it through a lot of that was through law. And I and and so I'm a big I I really it's not the only way, but I I think certainly that changing law changes hearts. It's like you're their kids.
Speaker 7:Right? I mean you you know if you're if kids are going to school and you have certain laws and practices that are in effect that's what the kids are gonna learn. I mean you know. And you know if you look at Doctor. King's history too I mean basically he was pushing for legal change on almost anything you looked at.
Speaker 4:If you're just tuning in, are winding down our precious time, here on this month's Nonviolent Austin Radio Hour on Co op Community Radio with Jim Harrington and he's got a book soon to be out Texas Civil Rights Project. And you're sitting Jim, we're all a room full of non violence practitioners and using our voice and our power. And my question for you is you're you're further down the road than I am in my activism. What to meet this moment what what advice do you have?
Speaker 7:So I think we I wanna go back to the Kennedy quote that we opened with. And I think it's really important particularly this time in our history but it's always been important. I think for people to act according to what they think they how they ought to be acting and not make a not say I'll put it off or I'm afraid. I don't wanna be embarrassed. Think it's really important.
Speaker 7:And and I think it's also important to understand all change is local. To quote Tip O'Neill, right, all politics is local. I think we have to understand that that the way that we make the change is from the ground up. Right? And that's why it's important that we act on the ground.
Speaker 7:So the the courts, federal courts that responded to doctor King's campaign were all Republican judges, but they knew that that movement was there and they had to bless it for all practical purposes right? And they they understood that and that's because it comes from up. And if we don't do something then we are doing exactly what the opposition wants. What the powers of darkness wants if we don't do anything. Right?
Speaker 7:Their best bet is everybody gets tired and worn down and doesn't do anything. And I think I think that's really and then the other thing I always tell people look we are where we are because of all the people that made the sacrifice that went in front of us. And they weren't expecting that we were just gonna sit around and wring our hands and whine. They were expecting that we were gonna keep the fight going. And so we owe it to them to honor what they've done for us but we also owe owe it to them to pass on because that's what they were expecting.
Speaker 7:They were believers in that moral arc that depends on each person acting. Every person no matter. And you guys find something you don't have to be out on the in the courts but you can do stuff. Help feed people. Help stand in solidarity with immigrants.
Speaker 7:I mean there's there is no end to the possibilities that people can find to do but you have to have that moral courage to do it.
Speaker 4:You have to have creativity in how you're gonna do it. And how does creativity come into play in your life's work?
Speaker 7:So for a lawyer, I was very creative. Come up with new legal theories and different ways to do it. Right? And and so I say that because in the way the legal system is structured, you you know, it doesn't foster creativity at all. I remember but but you have to figure it out.
Speaker 7:You you figure it out. And you get people behind you or you're with a group or whatever. You can you can there are ways that you can play with it but you have to be creative. I remember one of the I read about this in the book one of the first times that there are ways that you can play with it but you have to be creative. I remember one of the fir I read about this in the book.
Speaker 7:One of the first times that Cesar Chavez came to the valley when I was there and we got a bunch of lawyers together. I thought well they'd all you know be a big help. And so he comes in, you know, and everybody of course is in offices or job as and they're all shaking his hand and all that. And so we start the meeting and the first thing he says is, you know, I really don't like lawyers. And I thought, that was kind of a a impolitic thing to say.
Speaker 7:Mhmm. I have a group of lawyers. He says, here's why. Because they're always telling me what I can't do, not trying to justify what I have done. In other words, how do how do we support what the people have done, what their ideas are, instead of saying, well, you can't do that.
Speaker 7:That's technically your, you know, blah blah blah, that kind of stuff. And I and to me, that was a big moment in my life because that his motto was sisay poete. Yes. You can do it. And we actually at TCRP, Texas civil rights project, we turned that into a verb.
Speaker 7:Yeah. And we called it I'm all over the place. So, you know, but I I think that's important to understand that we all have something to do.
Speaker 5:Speaking of which, next week at this event at Princeton Palace called Todos Somos in Migrantes, there'll be two organizations there, Casa Marianella and Austin Sanctuary Network, who can use, who have have lots of opportunities for people to get involved.
Speaker 7:Yeah. I I do a lot of work with Casa Marianella. In fact, I was on his board a long long time ago. We do a lot of work. We have an immigrant program that we're working, housing program that we're working on.
Speaker 7:And you're a 100% right. All you have to do is show up at Casa and you'll find something to do that fits your skills. It's not like you have to go in and get trained to. It's whatever skills you have you'd be put to use. That's one of things we also wanted to do at TCRP.
Speaker 7:We had a lot of people who showed up and wanted to be volunteers. And it wasn't we're So what are your skills? What can you Somebody said well I can write this or I can, do it. Right? That's how you grow.
Speaker 7:You don't, and Casa is very good at doing that. They now have 14 houses, residents, residential places. Yeah. I I totally totally.
Speaker 5:Also the Austin Sanctuary network needs a lot of volunteers to help with all kinds of things including accompaniment which is which is really important.
Speaker 7:Yeah. We're working on yeah.
Speaker 4:That's When you say accompaniment, what do you mean?
Speaker 5:I I mean going with folks to San Antonio for their for their meetings with the feds, which which
Speaker 7:I know. Calling them meetings is a generous statement.
Speaker 6:Yeah. Nice check ins. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah.
Speaker 8:But, Jim, you seem like you're bubbling with it one one last
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Inquiry.
Speaker 6:Yeah, Jim. I I know you mainly from the last few years from Proyecto Santiago and and, now Iglesia Santiago and Saint James Episcopal Church. And at one point, fairly early, I think, in the book, you talked about the things that led you to seminary also led you out of seminary, the concerns, etcetera. And then at one point, I think you got an award up in Michigan or something and your mom was there and was ready. And the flow of the book raised the question for me, did your mom hope you would be a priest?
Speaker 6:And and but, basically, it's a question about the continuity of your life from seminary to law school to lawyer to priest.
Speaker 7:My mother never understood me, and she made that pretty clear. Like, I don't know what you're doing, but I'll I'll it. Right? So I honestly have no idea what they if if they My dad did not particularly want me to be a priest. I know.
Speaker 7:I knew that. I don't I don't know. I really don't know. I but I had picked up from them I need to do what I need to do. Know?
Speaker 7:And so they as I always told them it was their fault. I I was doing the way they trained me. So I
Speaker 8:I have one last thought that's on my mind. Know, reading this book, what is the subtitle of the book, Kim?
Speaker 6:How We Built the Social Justice Movement.
Speaker 8:How We Built the Social Justice Movement. Kinda in the vein of of my colleague Stacy's question about this moment that we're in. You know, we live in a society that on one hand lauds the ideal of freedom. But yet, we have the most we we're the most carcerally punished, and we cage more people in this country than anywhere in the world. You know, if there if my mind, if there were ever a time for a movement, that fact alone would be enough for me.
Speaker 8:You know? And it seems like I I guess what I'm trying to get at is, what do you think is the veil between like, there shouldn't even be a need for us to think about a movement. This should just be a no brainer that there's a contradiction here that you cannot have on one hand freedom, the ideal of freedom and then, you know, employ these these horrendous practices within the courts and with and now within, you know, the the the use of the military, and what's happening in DC. And and, you know, even here locally, I've I've read about a story in Round Rock where there was a police officer allegedly, you know, accused of, you know, molestation, sexual assault on people. And he was allowed to remain on the force.
Speaker 8:And so, you know, we have this this glaring contradiction. If there's a question, I guess the question would be, you know, how do we remove the veil? This book, is it part of that process to remove the veil from some of these folks' eyes about what this moment demands of us and what has been demanding of us. This moment is just a reflection I think of moments that have only led here.
Speaker 7:So you know how you define freedom is key here. And how Americans define freedom is individual selfishness. Right? You can go to Europe and see how they deal with incarceration which is a 100 degrees different Yes. What we we do here.
Speaker 7:Yeah. Or almost anywhere in the like Canada, Australia. Any any so we can we know how to do it if we wanted to do it. The question is why don't we want to do it? And I think this is part of the way the system plays off on us in terms of individuality and selfishness and greed You know?
Speaker 7:I think that's what is going on here. And this is in many respects also a criticism I have of churches is that they don't foster so freedom when you talk about freedom you have to include community. How does freedom help the community nurture? Right? It's not about me as the rugged individualist.
Speaker 7:That's how Americans are defined.
Speaker 8:Horatio augur.
Speaker 7:Mhmm. But how do you freedom in in the context of building community? Right?
Speaker 4:I don't I can't think of a sentence that we should unfortunately have to end this conversation on. Alright. We're gonna we're gonna end it in community.
Speaker 8:The part two coming. Part two coming.
Speaker 4:That's right. And you are welcome back anytime, Jim Harrington.
Speaker 7:Thank you very kind.
Speaker 4:You everyone. If you wanna hang out with us, if we're if if we're your jam, Sunday, September 21 at Princeton Palace is gonna be Austin Peace and Justice Fest. All are welcome. What's that?
Speaker 3:Noon to six.
Speaker 4:Noon to six. And we're also back on the airwaves here at Co op Radio on October 2. And I will be on my other show here on September 18, Racism on the Levels. My guest will be Sabrina Phillips, and we're gonna be talking about equity through art. So with that, Jim Crosby, take us out and, tell us what you're gonna play, and then we're gonna we're gonna wrap it up here.
Speaker 6:Our old standby. I expect brother Rob to sing along. We shall not be moved.
Speaker 4:And up next, you're going to hear democracy now, so stay tuned for that. Keep going, find friends.
Speaker 6:We shall not be moved. We're gonna work for freedom. We shall not be moved with mister Jim Harrington. We shall not be moving like a tree standing like a water. We shall not be moved.
Speaker 1:K OOP h d one h d three Hornsby.
Speaker 2:The following is a nationally syndicated news program broadcast by licensing agreement with Coop Radio. The views expressed are not necessarily the views of Co op Radio or its Board of Directors, volunteers, staff, or underwriters.
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