Jim Crosby: 00:25

Facts. Gonna ring the bell. Gonna love our neighbors. See our numbers swell. We've got some treasure, our tale to tell.

Jim Crosby: 00:38

Well, let's talk about race. Cut to the chase. Let's know our history, not get erased. Let's do the hard work, get face to face, break down the walls, y'all, accept the grace, and let's break down poverty and the war economy. Make me an activist, not just a wannabe, We're all beloved in true community.

Jim Crosby: 01:12

Honor each other's precious humanity. For our ecology, we've got biology, trusting good science. With a little geology, no more destruction. Fossil fuel mythology, love Mother Earth now, that's our ecology. And look to true religion, not the live division.

Jim Crosby: 01:41

Lift up each other, don't spew derision, respect all creatures. Love with precision, The law of love, that's true religion. I tell the tale, gonna tell it well, gonna know the real facts, gonna ring the bell, Gonna love our neighbors. See our numbers swell. We've got some treasure.

Jim Crosby: 02:12

Our tale to tell. Our tale to tell.

Stacie Freasier: 02:20

Thank you for bringing song into this space, Jim Crosby. Tell us what that was.

Jim Crosby: 02:29

That was my version, our called Our Tale to Tell of John Hertz, My Creole Bell. And I wrote it with the five interlocking evils that the Poor People's Campaign talks about in mind that they oppose. So it's poverty, racism, the war economy, environmental destruction and religious nationalism.

Stacie Freasier: 02:50

Thank you for that. Thank you for joining us today. You are listening to, the first episode of the second programming season of Nonviolent Austin Radio Hour. I am Stacy Frazier. I am joined here with my comrade Jim Crosby and I am joined in spirit by brother Robert Tyrone Lilly who is actually at an undoing racism workshop right now.

Stacie Freasier: 03:21

So he is in the movement in this moment in another physical space. I also have a couple of folks in the studio with me who will be silent partners on this show. Michelle Manning Scott, who is graciously running the board today. And John Hoffner, who is the fearless leader of our collective here on Co op, is the Austin Cooperative great hour here. So, all right, that's so many words, but you know, this is a news and public affairs show.

Stacie Freasier: 03:55

So I better like, like words. Jonathan Pinkney is joining us on the phone all the way from the nation's capital. Jonathan can you hear us?

Jonathan Pinckney: 04:10

I can yeah great to be with you today.

Jim Crosby: 04:13

Hey Jonathan.

Jonathan Pinckney: 04:15

Hello thank you that was a lovely song thank you so much for sharing that.

Stacie Freasier: 04:18

You bet thanks. So I'm really excited that Jonathan's joining us. He is a scholar of non violent resistance, democracy, and peace building, and was formerly director of applied research at the Horizons Project, where his work focused on how to resist democratic backsliding and was a senior researcher action for the United States Institute of Peace, which I am excited to say in the past couple of weeks has reopened their doors, after weathering the Doge storm. Jonathan has conducted trainings with activists around the world and has been widely published in leading academic and popular outlets including Waging Nonviolence and the International Center on Nonviolent Conflict. And I am serving as development director for Apache Bene nonviolent service and campaign nonviolence and really excited Jonathan that this is the way that we are connecting with one another as inevitable for us to do so.

Stacie Freasier: 05:22

So, so why don't you kick us off Jonathan, if you want to add any flavor to what I just, introed you as or what's tell us what's on your mind.

Jonathan Pinckney: 05:36

Yeah. Sure. I mean, first, I'll just say thank you so much for the invitation to be here. It's really wonderful to connect, and I'm really excited for to have this conversation over the next hour or so. Yeah.

Jonathan Pinckney: 05:48

I mean, I appreciate you highlighting the the reopening of the United States Institute of Peace, and maybe I might might start there. That's been on my mind recently. I worked there for about three years, and I have a number of, you know, friends and colleagues who are who still work there. And I have been particularly impressed and, you know, felt proud of my time at the Institute of Peace when I looked at the ways in which the the leadership of the institute did, you know, as you put it, weather the Doge storm that and I think there are some there are some lessons there for nonviolent resistance in general that, you know, the folks at the Institute of Peace when they, you know, got this, you know, got this notification of an executive order saying that the institute was being shut down, you know, they didn't in a year when one of your basic basic lessons of resistance, do not obey in advance. They did not they they didn't roll over right away.

Jonathan Pinckney: 06:45

They said, no. We're gonna do whatever we can to to slow this process down, to delay it, and to sort of set ourselves up for the eventual legal challenge that led to the reopening of the institute afterwards. And so I'm thinking, you know, I'm thinking a lot about the ways that all of us who are embedded in all of the different, you know, social, political, economic institutions across our country can be thinking about ways that, you know, in a moment of crisis and challenge for our democracy, we can be thinking intentionally about how to not obey in advance, how to use the power and positions that we have to stand up for those the values that we believe in and and stand against those those evils that Jim talked about so eloquently in his song at the beginning. So so yeah. So that's a little bit of a little bit of what's on my mind at the moment.

Jonathan Pinckney: 07:44

And yeah. Looking forward to the rest of this conversation.

Stacie Freasier: 07:48

Yeah. Thank you. So fun fact. The United States Institute of Peace was established in 1984 by congressional legislation and it was signed into law by Ronald Reagan.

Jonathan Pinckney: 08:01

Right.

Stacie Freasier: 08:02

Yeah. So yeah, anyway, I'll leave that there. But I do because I don't know how many people are aware of the US Institute for Peace and they have a robust and free app and many, many courses on civil resistance, Kenyan nonviolence, and many others. John Jonathan, I don't know if you wanna add to that list of of topics that they cover and it's available for anybody.

Jonathan Pinckney: 08:33

Oh, yeah. No. Thank you for highlighting that. I will say too, the website just came back up. It was down after after Doge took over the institute, but thanks to, again, this, you know, successful successful lawsuit, the site just came back up, and all of those all those really excellent resources are are back up.

Jonathan Pinckney: 08:53

And, you know, yes, like like you said, available for for free for anyone who wants to learn about everything from civil resistance to mediation and facilitation to, you know, how do how do civil wars end? How do we how do sort of security institutions get reformed? A whole range of, you know, really, like, really excellent and, you know, very accessible training materials on there.

Stacie Freasier: 09:20

Yes. Jim.

Jim Crosby: 09:22

Okay. I got lots of questions for you, Jonathan. First, I wanted to I wanted to, add a little more to our introduction. Some of our listeners have heard us mention the names Erica Chenoweth and Maria Stefan. And as I've researched your work some and listened of late to some of theirs, you make use of their work and they make use of yours.

Jim Crosby: 09:44

I just wanted to kudos in that regard. And I'd like you to give us a little more self introduction in terms of background, maybe going back further in terms of how you first got interested in nonviolence and and engaged it as an academic subject.

Jonathan Pinckney: 09:59

Yeah. Sure. No. Thanks for that question. And, yes, you are you're correct.

Jonathan Pinckney: 10:04

Erica Chenoweth and Maria Stefan are, of course, you know, some of the the leading voices in this field, and I've had the the really excellent good fortune to to work closely with with both of them. Erica Chenoweth was my dissertation adviser, and Maria Stefan was my boss at the US Institute of Peace and at the Horizons Project. But yeah. But let me go a little bit further back before I had the chance to meet and interact with these these excellent scholars. So, shortly after I graduated from college in 02/2008, I went and lived and worked in Egypt for about a year.

Jonathan Pinckney: 10:41

This is in kind of all through the year of 02/2009. And one of the things that I really loved to do while I was living and working in Egypt was to, you know, sit in cafes late at night with my Egyptian friends, drinking tea, and smoking a smoking a hookah, and talking about politics. Young Egyptians really love talking really love talking about politics. And in 02/2009, for those of you who who aren't familiar, Egypt was at the time being ruled over by a man named president Hosni Mubarak who had come into power about thirty years before when the previous president had been assassinated and, you know, was was a he was a dictator. There's really kind of no you know, you don't need to say it in a more complicated way than that.

Jonathan Pinckney: 11:30

And at the time, in 02/2009, the only real sort of relevant political question that people talked about in Egypt was when president Mubarak dies, who is it his son who's gonna be the next president, or is it the head of the secret police who's gonna be the next president? Because, you know, no question whatsoever that, you know, president Mubarak is gonna be president until he dies, and it's definitely gonna be, you know, someone in his inner circle who's gonna be the next president, and major political change just isn't possible. But, you know, who in this kind of, you know, elite coalition is going to be the act the the the successor? But so I was, you know, so I was there in 02/2009, and then a couple years later, I'm back in The US, and I find I hear from my friends that protests have started in Downtown Cairo. And that, you know, Tahrir Square, this sort of central, you know, central place in Downtown Cairo that I, you know, I knew very well.

Jonathan Pinckney: 12:31

I had, you know, walked through, been through many, many times, is now sort of filled with not just, you know, not just a few protesters, but hundreds of thousands of protesters who are demanding that president Mubarak step down from power and initiate a real transition to democracy. And many of my friends, you know, joined these protests, were were there, you know, know, twenty four seven in the square demanding the the end of the the end of the regime and the political transition. And as as some of you may know, they were remarkably successful. After only three weeks of protests, president Mubarak stepped down from power and initiated a initiated a political transition in line with the with the protesters' demand. And when I heard this from my you know, both from the news and from my friends, this completely blew my mind.

Jonathan Pinckney: 13:31

How I had no idea that something like this could even be possible. How could, you know, how could change happen so quickly when everybody from academic experts to, you know, activists to ordinary people on the ground in Egypt had, you know, even just, you know, a couple years before or even a couple months before thought that, you know, change like this was completely impossible. And so that was what motivated me to go to graduate school at that point and study nonviolent resistance. I wanted to understand how people can come together in these massive movements and lead to real meaningful political change. And then as I, you know, as I was starting my graduate studies, as I was, you know, getting interested in in researching this topic, events in Egypt sort of progressed further.

Jonathan Pinckney: 14:25

And as some of you may know, what was this hopeful moment of the two thousand eleven revolution very quickly turned into a lot of, you know, frustration over problems in the political transition. And then, eventually, there was a a military coup that ended the transition. There was a a massive massacre of peaceful protesters, and Egypt essentially reverted to a to a dictatorship, to a dictatorship that in many ways is, you know, more violent and repressive than the one that preceded it. And so I got really, really fascinated and really wanted understand the connection, not just of how do nonviolent resistance movements happen, but why do they go wrong sometimes? Why do they sometimes have long term enduring effects that lead to a more sort of positive democratic future, and sometimes they get reversed and things end up worse than they were before.

Jonathan Pinckney: 15:31

And so that's kind of the the specific connection between nonviolent resistance and democracy really came out of that experience, and that's essentially kind of what I've been, you know, what I've been focusing on ever since. You know, how does how does nonviolent resistance happen? When and how does it succeed? And and what are its long term effects, particularly as they relate to democracy?

Stacie Freasier: 15:55

Thank you, Jonathan. If you are just tuning in, you are listening to Nonviolent Austin Radio Hour on k00p.org streaming everywhere and ninety one point seven FM here in Austin, Texas. I am your host Stacy Frazier. I'm joined with by my cohost Jim Crosby and we are joined by guest and non violence scholar, Jonathan Pinkney. And Jonathan, I was thinking about principle six as a I'm a Kingian nonviolence level two trainer as is Jim And the arc of the universe being long but bending towards justice came up for me as you mentioned at least what appears to be an a backsliding, if you will, of what happened with the situation in Egypt.

Stacie Freasier: 16:47

How do you make sense of that? Let's talk more about the durability and the perspective of at least short term failure?

Jonathan Pinckney: 16:59

Yeah, it's a great question. And it's one that I'm devoting a lot of time to and still trying to wrestle with and understand better myself. But let me say a little bit about, you know, kind of what we know about when movements that have, you know, sort of succeeded in the short term tend to lead to kind of longer term positive effects and when those things can tend to break down. So, kind of and this is this is work that I focused on this is the question I focused on in particular in my my 2020 book, From Descent to Democracy. And what I essentially, I, you know, what I argue in that book and what kind of the the data from around the world tends to show is that trend political transitions that start with nonviolent resistance have some advantages.

Jonathan Pinckney: 17:51

They have some advantages over any other kind of political transition where, you know, whether that's something that is, you know, started from the top down or started through a violent revolution. They tend nonviolent revolutions tend to elevate leaders who have more democratic preferences, who are sort of more likely to support democracy. They tend to change the norms of political behavior in a more cooperative democratic direction, And they tend to have legacies where, you know, if you had a a massive nonviolent revolution that mobilized lots of people for political change, then that tends to diffuse political power and organizing skills more widely throughout society in a way that can, you know, continue to hold political leaders accountable on into the future. So there are all these kind of positive mechanisms that come through, you know, revolutions through nonviolent resistance. But none of these mechanisms happen automatically, I think is the the key thing that I I focused on my own in my own research.

Jonathan Pinckney: 18:58

And in particular, periods of political transition come with a huge amount of uncertainty. You know, these are times when people are figuring out, you know, what is our new what is our new system of government going to look like? What are the new you know, who are the new political leaders going to be who are going to shape our country going forward? And during those times, there are two particular challenges that I've I've focused on in my work. The first relates to continued mobilization.

Jonathan Pinckney: 19:28

So, you know, if you are engaged in a a nonviolent resistance campaign against a dictator, there are and, of course, you know, there's a lot of, you know, potential for government repression and harm, but it it is easier to unite a broad spectrum of people around the idea, you know, just of political change that we, you know, we don't like the way things are now. We want things to be we want things to be different. You can get a lot of people on the streets around that unifying idea. Once the dictator is gone, once we're in a political transition, then the the question of mobilization becomes a lot more complicated because people are now now have to think more specifically about, okay. Well, what do we want our new country to look like?

Jonathan Pinckney: 20:12

And oftentimes, the revolutionary coalitions that come together against dictators fragment into, you know, into pieces that then struggle against one another over different visions of what they want the future of their country to look like. And so in some cases, this can escalate into, you know, kind of all or nothing back and back and forth political struggles that destabilize the political system and open up space for a kind of a new dictator, a new sort of strongman leader to come in and say, I'm gonna resolve all of these, you know, new political challenges that people are facing. I'm going to sort of restore political and economic stability. And, you know, if the transition has been particularly disruptive, then, you know, there may be a a sympathetic audience for that. And in some ways, this is, you know, this is partially the story of of what happened in Egypt, the the case that I that I mentioned previously.

Jonathan Pinckney: 21:13

So that's kind of one set of challenges associated with, you know, kind of revolutionary coalitions fragmenting, starting to fight one starting to fight one another, and then destabilizing politics. The other is, I think, kind of the inverse, where in a lot of cases where, you know, you may have had short term success of a nonviolent revolution, people think, okay. We we won. You know, we got the we got the bad guys out. We've got, you know, we've got the good guys in, and now we, you know, we can all go home and return to our lives, and everything's going to be fine.

Jonathan Pinckney: 21:48

And if that happens, if sort of there is real significant demobilization at the end of a, you know, at the end of a nonviolent revolution, then it provides space for, you know, political elites to essentially come in and hijack the tension to reestablish a new form of, you know, authoritarian rule. And so I think those are, you know, those are not the only pathways to kind of more negative outcomes after nonviolent revolutions, but those are a couple of the major challenges that tend to come up in these in these transitional moments. You know, in many ways, kind of, you know, ousting a dictator and starting the political transition is is just the beginning. It's just sort of the first challenge of of many towards establishing a, you know, a more free democratic just society.

Jim Crosby: 22:42

Thanks, Jonathan. As I said, I've got lots of questions. And I wanna I wanna go ahead and read you out two or three of them, some of which you've already touched on and let you kinda pick between.

Jonathan Pinckney: 22:53

Okay.

Jim Crosby: 22:54

What's the distinction you make between effective nonviolent mobilization and, quote, street radicalism, and where are we on balance with that in The USA today? And what do you see as the relationship between movements and training? Those of us sold on nonviolence wanna spread the training. Does the man the demand have to come from an existing movement though first?

Jonathan Pinckney: 23:14

Oh, great questions. Okay. So let me think about this. Let I'll start with the second one and talk about talk about movements and training. You know, I think one of the insights that has informed lot of work that I've done is this idea that, you know, it's not original to me.

Jonathan Pinckney: 23:32

It kind of goes back to, you know, as folks as early as, you know, as early as Gandhi and King and scholars like Gene Sharp who, you know, made this argument that, you know, just as we expect soldiers in war to have to go through training in order to be effective in in, you know, in in fighting a war, so, you know, in order to engaging in nonviolent resistance is not something that comes comes naturally to many people. It's something that requires, you know, training and training and knowledge and careful thinking and strategizing. And I think, again, you know, there are sort of numerous historical examples of this, probably, you know, the best some of the best in in our country come from the the civil rights movement in the sixties and, you know, people like the reverend James Lawson, who's, you know, training in Nashville and other places around the American South helped, you know, start the the lunch counter sit in phase of the civil rights movement and played a really key role in mobilization throughout the throughout the period of the civil rights movement. Now I think, you know, your question about, you know, where does the so where does the impetus have to come from from training?

Jonathan Pinckney: 24:51

You know, do people have to like, does there have to be demand? Like, where's what's where's the balance between demand and supply? You know, I don't know if I have a a clear answer to that. I do think that there is a, you know, there's a place for activists and trainers to, you know, to share some of these strategic complexities of nonviolent resistance with people to to highlight the ways in which training is in which training is important. But, of course, you know, I think in the same way that you're, you know, you're not a leader if you don't have anyone following you.

Jonathan Pinckney: 25:27

I don't think you're really a trainer if you don't have anyone, you know, taking training from you. And so I think there's you know, for people who are who are offering training in nonviolent resistance, I think it's important to be, you know, both, like, well prepared to to share the the details of that training, but also, you know, able to, you know, able to kind of talk about how nonviolent resistance works in a way that helps people understand some of the complexities of engaging in nonviolent resistance in a way that is, you know, strategic and effective. Now so on your first question about kind of the distinction between effective nonviolent resistance and the phrase street radicalism. So this is, you know, something from some of my earlier work that, you know, focused on this particular question of of transitional politics. So, I mean, I would say there isn't a kind of direct parallel to the the way that I use those concepts in my research to the situation in The United States now because, you know, that you know, I was using that I was, you know, using that particularly in the context of political transitions.

Jonathan Pinckney: 26:44

I mean, I would say the the general principles that I think distinguish those things are about kind of, you know, uniting around shared objectives rather than, you know, fragmenting around particular, you know, particular goals. And also around, you know, focusing on tactics whose purpose is to, you know, target the sources of power of an opponent rather than to, you know, make some kind of, you know, just, I don't know, direct statement or trying to communicate one's own, you know, the the strength of one's own particular position. I think oftentimes in in some movements, you know, tactics are chosen not necessarily because they are particularly effective ways of, you know, undermining the opponent's power, but rather they're focused on, you know, kind of creating a moment of dramatic confrontation because that's something that people, you know, find find appealing. And I think that's that that is where where one place where I would draw a kind of helpful unhelpful distinction. I think that, you know, in in any kind of nonviolent effective nonviolent resistance movement, you know, tactics should be flowing downstream from strategy, not the not the other way around.

Jonathan Pinckney: 28:12

And I think in a lot of in a lot of movements, people, you know, people start with a tactic. They start with saying, hey. We're going to, you know, we're gonna protest here or we're going to, you know, we're going to have a sitting here or this sort of thing. And then, you know, kind of after having made that short term decision, then people think about, you know, think about strategy, think about kind of how is this going to actually impact the, you know, the issue that we want it that we want it to. And so I think, you know, effective move effective movements, you know, if you start with the big you start with the, know, the ultimate vision that then leads to a that then leads to a strategy, and then the strategy then informs tactics, rather than the other way around.

Stacie Freasier: 28:55

You are tuned in to Nonviolent Austin Radio Hour here on KOOP.org streaming live, and ninety one point seven FM here in Austin, Texas. I am Stacy Frazier. I'm joined here with Jim Crosby and via phone from DC, Jonathan Pinckney. And we have discussed, Jonathan, your background into nonviolence, your formative experiences in Egypt back in 02/2009, and then your scholarship. And you, in my estimation, been mentored and reviewed by the most predominant leaders in strategic nonviolence out there right now.

Stacie Freasier: 29:51

So I have a question before we go back to Jim's questions for you and that's related to nonviolence being challenged to be understood by someone who doesn't study it, right? And I mean, study it in-depth, right? And so how do you see we as a movement of nonviolent practitioners, how do we bring people into understanding of what we're talking about?

Jonathan Pinckney: 30:30

That's a really great question. So I think, you know, one of the real basic things that I have found to be super helpful bringing people into both kind of interest in nonviolent resistance and then sort of desire to learn more, to practice more, is just awareness of how important nonviolent resistance has been in kind of major moments of political transformation around the world. There's a there's an exercise that I like to do both when I'm when I'm teaching about nonviolent resistance and also kind of working with, you know, working with different groups, you know, kind of giving them an introduction to nonviolent resistance. And I have to I have to give all credit to my my mentor, Erica Chen with, who I I cribbed this this exercise from. But the exercise goes a little bit goes a little bit like this.

Jonathan Pinckney: 31:24

So, you know, you ask you know, you have a group of people, you know, make sure everybody has, like, paper and pen or, you know, or, you know, smartphone or something to type on and say, okay. Let's you know, tell me how many like, I'm gonna time you. I want you to come up with a list of 10 wars. And, you know, people take a few seconds. They and they can usually come up with it pretty quickly.

Jonathan Pinckney: 31:47

You know, with an American audience, everyone is gonna be saying, you know, World War one, World War two, the Vietnam War, all of, you know, all that sort of thing. And then you say, alright. I'm gonna okay. It's like, alright. Pencils, you know, pencils down.

Jonathan Pinckney: 31:59

We're gonna do this we're gonna do this one more time with a different set of thing different set of things. And I say, alright. Now, I want you to come up with a list of 10 nonviolent resistance campaigns. Inevitably, even, you know, often often, you know, even in audiences that are sometimes made up of activists, people struggle to come up with a struggle to come up with a list of 10. And so then, you know, I lead, you know, lead in from that to, okay.

Jonathan Pinckney: 32:29

Well, you know, why is it so hard for us to, you know, to think of 10 nonviolent resistance campaigns? Why, you know, why is that why is that the case? Is it that, you know, maybe is nonviolent resistance, you know, just, you know, less common? And the answer is, you know, definitively no. You know, I, you know, bring up, the, you know, the kind of scholarship on on wars, say, you know, there have been a few hundred wars included in, say, the Corals of War dataset, which is, you know, one of the world's leading resources on war.

Jonathan Pinckney: 33:00

The global nonviolent action database, which is one of the kind of most comprehensive online databases of nonviolent resistance campaigns, has something has around I think it's 1,200 to 1,400 campaigns included on there, and that's not a you know, that's not the whole global population of nonviolent resistance campaigns. That's just the ones that they've covered so far. And so, you know, nonviolent resistance is actually something that is incredibly, incredibly common. And then I like to lead in from there to, okay. Well, is it just that, you know, maybe nonviolent resistance doesn't matter?

Jonathan Pinckney: 33:37

That it it happens all the time, but it's not particularly successful or not particularly transformative. And then that's and then I say, like, well, you know, if we actually look at the scholarship, that's not the case either. You know, one of the most famous findings from Erika Chenoweth and Maria Stefan's work is the the much higher success rate of nonviolent resistance movements as opposed to violent resistance movements. You know, violent campaigns in their data, you know, succeeded around 25% of the time. Nonviolent campaigns succeeded around 50% of the time.

Jonathan Pinckney: 34:13

And have also, you know, led nonviolent resistance campaigns have led to, you know, huge social and political transformations in in many countries around the world. You know, I think the the civil rights movement in The United States is is a prominent example that a lot of American folks are very familiar with. You know, we could talk about decolonization from around the world, whether that be the the Gandhian movement for independence in India or, you know, a number of movements across across Sub Saharan Africa that led to that led to decolonization and independence there. And so I think, you know, highlighting for folks that this is something that that happens, that is very that is very common, and also very consequential is something that seems to you know, it sparks a lot of people's interest. It's, you know, it's like, okay.

Jonathan Pinckney: 35:02

Well, why you know, if this is if this is the case, why is this something that, you know, I haven't heard about or that I'm not you know, that we're not taught about? And that often is, you know, something that kind of, you know, sparks people sparks people's interest, and and motivates them to to learn to learn more.

Jim Crosby: 35:21

Okay, Jonathan. Here you go. More questions.

Jonathan Pinckney: 35:24

Okay.

Jim Crosby: 35:25

First off, pillars of support. We we talk a lot about pillars of support. You write about pillars of support. What do you see as the key ones propping up, you know, incipient fascism, etcetera, farther along fascism, how are we, in The US today? And where are we in terms of weakening them?

Jonathan Pinckney: 35:43

Yeah. Really, really great question. I mean, so, you know, for those of you, you know, those of you listening who aren't maybe aren't familiar, so the the pillars of support framework, it's I think, it's a really, really it's a really great, you know, kind of way of thinking through how political and social systems work. You know, this this kind of core idea that, you know, any political system, the leaders of any political system rely on flows of power coming up to them from society through particular, you know, social social or political groups. So in a government, you know, you can think about this as, you know, you have the people at the top of the government, and then you have, you know, the, say, the official, you know, the official sort of organs of government, whether that be police, military, civil servants, that sort of thing.

Jonathan Pinckney: 36:36

But also that, you know, political systems rely on moral and or ideological support. They rely on kind of general kind of consent and feelings of authority from from society more broadly. And so the pillars of support for, you know, for a for a government, you know, don't just include the actual specific organs of that government, but include, you know, say, business communities that provide financial resources. They include, you know, maybe religious communities that provide may provide sort of moral or or ideological support. And that, you know, kind of the key mechanisms through which nonviolent resistance works is through shifting the loyalty of those pillars of support such that they are no longer providing that, you know, the the power and resources that a social or political system needs to to continue to function.

Jonathan Pinckney: 37:29

Okay. So that's kinda, you know, so the pillars of the board framework there. As far as, you know, the specific situation in the, like, in The United in The United States, I mean, it's it's funny. It's a tricky it's a it's a tricky question, and I think it's a little bit different if we're talking about, say, you know, the the state level or the national level or the local level. You know, these kinds of relationships get very, you know, get very complicated very, very quickly.

Jonathan Pinckney: 37:59

When I was when I was at the Horizons project, you know, one of the projects one of the projects that we engaged in there was trying to do some systematic mapping of pillars of support for rising authoritarianism at the, you know, at the particular state level. And so as far as kind of where the, you know, where the pillars of support for, know, for authoritarianism more more broadly in The United States are today. I mean, I think the yeah. I mean, we could we could talk about we could talk about this for for, you know, hours. So I'm I'm gonna try and be I'm gonna try and be concise.

Jonathan Pinckney: 38:39

I mean, I think there is I mean, one key element of it is, of course, I think there's a there's a deep connection to to to racism and bigotry and other forms of other forms of prejudice. And so the ideological the ideological superstructure of white supremacy is, I think, one key, you know, one key factor that supports, you know, author like, authoritarian or even even fascist politics. And so, I think there are, you know, a variety of different kinds of media media institutions, public, you know, public figures that, you know, promote various kind like, ideal like, ideologies that, you know, that promote racist or white supremacist ideas. So I think that's one, you know, that's one key, you know, one key part of it. I think there is there is certainly an an economic side an economic side to it as well that there are, you know, there are there are sort of material material resources that are that are flowing to, you know, to political leaders that are engaged in in antidemocratic actions.

Jonathan Pinckney: 39:49

And, you know, I think there is a you know, there are there's a, you know, a a widespread kind of media, like, media movement focused around misinformation and disinformation and kind of fomenting political political polarization that also, you know, plays a key role in in supporting authoritarianism in the, like, in The United States.

Stacie Freasier: 40:12

So, Jonathan, I'm gonna I'm gonna pause you right there for a second to welcome with great enthusiasm our tri the third leg of the triad here for the show, brother Robert Tyrone Lily just, joined us fresh out of, an undoing racism workshop with the legendary Ron Chisholm. And so brother Rob, how are you doing today? Good to see you. Welcome.

Brother Robert Tyrone Lilly: 40:46

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Good afternoon. Peace and blessings. Peace and blessings. I am very honored to be here, and I'm just I was soaking up some of the content that the the speaker was sharing a moment ago and and just thinking about that last point that you were making as as but I I was, you know, I know that I've missed some of the conversation, but I'm sitting here and I can't help but think, what's new about this?

Brother Robert Tyrone Lilly: 41:14

Nothing that I'm hearing is new in my understanding of this country. You know, fascism or what we term fascism to me is Americanism and it's the history of this country. And, you know, from my vantage point as a as a person that's black who currently is on parole for another twenty six years and I have this tenuous thing that is it's not quite freedom. It's not quite incarceration. It's not quite citizenship.

Brother Robert Tyrone Lilly: 41:50

It's not quite belonging. But yet I'm out of a cage. You know, when I hear the word fascism, I'm like, what are you talking about? You know?

Jim Crosby: 41:58

Jonathan mentioned, James Lawson a while ago, and and James Lawson talked about our current economic system as plantation capitalism. So there's that continuity you're talking about.

Brother Robert Tyrone Lilly: 42:11

And I and I don't mean to in any way sadly, I've only peaked at your writings. I didn't get a chance to really dive into it because of my because of my transition. But I'm I'm looking forward to good delving more into your articles that I saw listed in your links and and hearing more about your thought processes as it relates to the the non violent strategy or approach to community change. So, I I just want to be brief and and I don't want to take up too much space because you know, we don't have a a lot of time but again, I just emphasize, you know, when I think about this, I just want to throw a caveat out and you could pick up whatever you want to go but I I made a point just a moment ago. I don't quite have what's what's what generally is understood as freedom.

Brother Robert Tyrone Lilly: 43:01

You know. And and and so there are millions of us in this country that are justice impacted, that are a part of the society but we are barred from full participation in the society and and what's what's when and this is how I think it connects to this conversation. When I think about fascism or I think about, you know, authoritarian rule, we really don't even think about this population because in in the majority of our community's minds, we've justified the exclusion of this community on the basis that we are in some way being made safe by the state. That the state justifies itself with the use of the authority of the police powers invested in the, you know, uniformed officers, invested in the courts, and that this is legitimate, yet we call ourselves a democratic nation. We call ourselves the freest nation in the world, and we have the highest incarceration were rate in the entire industrial nations of of all over the world.

Brother Robert Tyrone Lilly: 44:03

And matter of fact, even going further than that, there's never been a nation in the history of all world's nations that is incarcerated as citizenry like The United States Of America. It's like we're living in an illusion that we have something or had something that really never existed.

Stacie Freasier: 44:20

There you go. You're listening to Nonviolent Austin Radio Hour. Ninety one. Seven FM Austin K O O P dot ORG and Jonathan. Mhmm.

Stacie Freasier: 44:32

I'm hearing a lot of ooze over there. So speak your peace.

Jonathan Pinckney: 44:40

Yeah. No. I mean, first, I just wanna say thank you so much for for bringing this into the conversation. It's so it's so crucial to to be keeping both the the history of this country in mind and the ways in which I mean, as exactly was brought up, you know, freedom and democracy in this country has never been equally distributed. And that for many peep for many people in this for many people in this country, whether that be on the basis of race or related to incarceration, the, you know, the freedoms that we we talk about so proudly in this country have been, you know, sort of systematically denied.

Jonathan Pinckney: 45:22

And I think, you know, one of the things that I really appreciate about the the the way that kind of the scholarship on democracy both in The United States and around the world has gone is trying is not looking at things in a strict binary anymore saying, you know, okay. Hey. This country is a dictatorship, and this country is a democracy. But looking at things along a spectrum and saying, you know, the the ideal of the the ideal of democracy, the ideal of freedom is something that, you know, no country in this world perfectly, you know, perfectly approaches Mhmm. That we are, you know, we're on a you know, we're we are we are hopefully, if we're doing if we are doing well, we are on the road toward improving that democracy for the most vulnerable the most vulnerable among our, you know, among our population for people who've been historically historically excluded.

Brother Robert Tyrone Lilly: 46:20

We even and and and then we noted that's and please forgive me for being hasty, but, you know, when I I I like the word ideal. I like that word. And I'd like to believe and I and and on some level, I I do believe that it is true for many of us that we are striving to to realize a more earnest freedom or more earnest inclusive society but we know that this this is not a linear continuum that this thing regresses and you know it it it stagnates and and it reverts and so, I and this is the tension I think I live with. You know, I live in this in between place of, you know, historically, we know that the idea of freedom is is a novel idea in the history of the human family, right? This idea that that that people have this thing called rights and and that they have the the privilege to protest.

Brother Robert Tyrone Lilly: 47:18

That this is this is a relatively new concept in the history of the human race. And so I I like the idea that this is an ideal and what I what what offends me so much is that we live in a society that is so arrogant and is so deluded in that it presents itself as the the epitome of this actualization when in fact it's quite the opposite that, you know, they've almost embodied the the the ultimate, you know, disregard of these ideals in that we've lived with this contradiction. On one hand, we have voting but we deny women. On one hand, we have voting but yet women are property. On one hand, we have voting but yet you can't participate unless you have property and you can't have property if you're a woman and if you're African American and you definitely can't have it if you're poor.

Brother Robert Tyrone Lilly: 48:12

And so we've lived with these contradictions over the course of our centuries. And it's like we want we these people that are so deluded want us to believe that this story never existed when in fact it has. And I just think that we have those of us that have our eyes open must continue to propound that issue again and again regardless of whether they push back, regardless of whether they call us sane or lacking sanity but we know what what what truth is. And so I just thank you for the conversation and and for the little time I've had to participate.

Stacie Freasier: 48:42

Yeah. And and

Jonathan Pinckney: 48:43

Yeah. I mean, I I completely agree. And and I would just say too, I think, you know, it's so crucial to to talk about that history and to talk about the you know, like like exactly as you said that, you know, that the progress isn't linear and that the progress when it has occurred has occurred through struggle. You know, has occur you know, we we were talking earlier earlier about, you know, the very famous quote from from doctor King about, you know, the arc of the the arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. Mhmm.

Jonathan Pinckney: 49:14

And, you know, some folks misinterpret that as assuming that, okay. Well, you know, the arc of the universe is bending this way, so that means I don't have to do anything. And and that's not, you know, that's not what King meant by it at all. Yes. You know, he you know, we have to be the ones to bend the arc that way.

Jonathan Pinckney: 49:33

And that this, you know, change towards, you know, towards that ideal of freedom, that ideal of democracy happens through struggle. You know, the women's suffrage in this in this country happened happened because of a, you know, a decades and decades long nonviolent resistance movement. Civil rights in this country happened because of, you know, because of a a struggle of nonviolent resistance. You know, workers' rights in this country happened because of decades and decades of, you know, labor activism. And that, you know, if we are going to be on the the positive part of that arc moving towards, you know, moving towards that ideal, moving towards greater freedom and greater and greater justice, then, you know, that's going to take that's gonna take action.

Jonathan Pinckney: 50:24

That's going to take activism and resistance.

Stacie Freasier: 50:27

I'm going to being mindful of the time here Jonathan and my goodness this is a heady and hearty subject, pun intended. I want to make a couple of real quick community announcements as I am working as Adrienne Maree Brown writes about in fractals and how, you know, movement and change happens within oneself first and then within the community and then extend it to the body of your scholarly work which is on the global stage. And so here at Nonviolent Austin, we have on June 22, we're hosting actually an event for Austin youth to share their vision where youth, young people are going to join us and share with us and teach us what gives them hope for the future and how to grow as a community and what can we do bridging young people and elders here in our community and what is nonviolent organizing? So if you are interested, it is going to be Sunday, June 22 from 01:30 to three and that is going to be at First Unitarian Universalist Church of Austin. There is a, we will post it on, if you search nonviolent Austin now at this point, Nonviolent Austin, you're going to find us, our website, our Facebook page here at coop.org, to get ahold of us.

Stacie Freasier: 52:10

We're going to be, sharing this out. There's a registration we are asking people to register although that is not a barrier. So, if you're interested in coming Sunday, June 22, '1 '30 to '3. And, I think where you just need to do a parting quick round of I would say what is giving grounding each of us in gratitude in this moment. That's where I want us to end and Jim what's grounding you in gratitude in this moment?

Jim Crosby: 52:43

I just read this morning a wonderful article that I wanted to recommend to people. And I posted it, I think, on nonviolent Austin Facebook page. It's called The Rise of End Time Fascism by Naomi Klein and Astra Taylor. And the thing that made me think of, and and I've seen some in your writing, Jonathan, is that we need to have a vision of the world we want as we do our nonviolent resistance. So, thank you for sharing that, and I just commend to all our listeners to be coming up with that vision.

Stacie Freasier: 53:15

Mhmm. And Jonathan, is thinking as, you know, the the vacuum that can happen after a non a win, air quotes, of is, you know, the absence of a creation of the alternative. And so I invite us to continue to build what we want to happen. And I'm grateful for this community that continues to widen and the friendship that I have with everyone in this room and Jonathan you from afar.

Jonathan Pinckney: 53:51

Yeah, I think same very much though.

Stacie Freasier: 53:53

Jonathan what are you what are you grateful for in this moment?

Jonathan Pinckney: 53:58

Yeah. I would say I'm also feeling very grateful for community, for places where I've been able to to have these conversations with people who are who are thinking about how to be resisting fascism in their, like, in their own lives. In particular, I wanna shout out my my community at the Dallas Meditation Center, which is where I've been able to have a number of these conversations and talk about both how we can be standing up for the things that we believe in, but also grounding ourselves in the present moment at the same time. So I wanted to to shout those folks out.

Stacie Freasier: 54:39

Brother Rob, what's grounding you in gratitude?

Brother Robert Tyrone Lilly: 54:44

Purpose. You know, knowing today that as I walk in my purpose, that that is my freedom. That no government, no nation, no politician, no ruler is the arbiter of my my freedom. My freedom is above and beyond anything that these institutions of man can dominate and control. They may be able to lock my body but they cannot lock my heart nor my mind.

Brother Robert Tyrone Lilly: 55:15

I'm free.

Stacie Freasier: 55:20

And with that, we're gonna we're gonna go out on song like like we always do and we'll continue to sing. So Jim, what are you gonna take us out on?

Jim Crosby: 55:29

This is called I'm Satisfied and it's based on Mississippi John Hertz song I'm Satisfied with lyrics that I rewrote. So it's basically about solidarity and building beloved community together. Jonathan, thank you. Whoops. I'm starting to play Creole Bell again.

Jonathan Pinckney: 55:48

And thank you so much, everyone.

Jim Crosby: 55:53

I'm satisfied and tickle two. I'm marching arm in arm with you. I'm satisfied. We'll keep on till we win. I'm satisfied and tickle two, and I'm marching arm in arm with you, I'm satisfied.

Jim Crosby: 56:10

We'll be back again. We'll organize throughout our state, we won't lie down and we won't wait, we'll organize. Keep on till we win, we'll organize. Register and vote, we'll speak the truth. The week and quote by rope, we'll organize.

Jim Crosby: 56:30

We'll be back again. I'm satisfied and tickle two marching arm in arm with you. I'm satisfied. We'll keep on till we win. I'm satisfied and tickle two, and I'm marching arm in arm with you.

Jim Crosby: 56:47

Satisfied. We'll be back again. Well, we're the ones to decide our fate, we're gonna mobilize and educate, I'm satisfied. We'll keep on till we win. Yeah, we're the ones to decide our fate, we're gonna mobilize and educate.

Jim Crosby: 57:05

I'm satisfied. We'll be back again. I'm satisfied and tickle to marching army and army. You, I'm satisfied. We'll keep on till we win.

Jim Crosby: 57:19

I'm satisfied in Tigletoe, and I'm marching arm in arm with you. I'm satisfied. We'll be back again.