Jim Crosby: 00:00

Satisfied, tickled to. March in arm and arm with you, I'm satisfied. We'll be back again. We'll organize throughout our state. We won't lie down, and we won't wait.

Jim Crosby: 00:14

We'll organize. Keep on till we win. We'll organize. Register and vote. We'll speak the truth.

Jim Crosby: 00:21

Though we can quote by a road, we'll organize. Here we'll be back again. Well, we're the ones to decide our fate. We're gonna mobilize and educate. I'm satisfied.

Jim Crosby: 00:34

We'll keep on till we win. Here we're the ones to decide our fate. We're gonna mobilize and educate. I'm satisfied. We'll be back again.

Jim Crosby: 00:46

I'm satisfied until two marching army and army you. I'm satisfied. We'll keep on till we win. And I'm satisfied until two, and I'm marching arm and arm with you. I'm satisfied.

Jim Crosby: 01:02

We'll be back again.

Jim Crosby: 01:06

Satisfied.

Stacie Freasier: 01:09

Greetings. Greetings, y'all. This is Stacy Frazier. I am in a room full of lovely people who I am thrilled, tickled to know, to be in loving solidarity with here at nonviolent Austin. You are listening to nonviolent Austin radio hour, and we are part of the Austin Cooperative Hour Collective, which is a program of Austin Centric Centric News and Public Affairs, and we cover a bunch of topics in our collective.

Stacie Freasier: 01:41

We are grounded in purpose against the principles that with the principles and the philosophy of Doctor. Martin Luther King Jr. And many others. And we are engaged in training each other with each other learning and teaching, Kingian non violence as a way to resist unjust laws, policies, actions, practices. So we have Chaz Moore with us again.

Stacie Freasier: 02:16

Welcome again, Chaz.

Jim Crosby: 02:18

Mhmm. Hey.

Stacie Freasier: 02:21

This shoe fits. Glad you're here. Brother Robert Tyrone Lilly.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 02:25

Peace and blessings. Peace and blessings.

Stacie Freasier: 02:27

Brother Jim Crosby.

Jim Crosby: 02:29

Good to be with y'all.

Stacie Freasier: 02:32

Alright, y'all. Black History Month. Let's, continue to honor it, acknowledge it, give it voice, educate everyone about it, even if the federal government does not and is trying to stop it from happening. So thank y'all for holding this space, and I know brother Rob, you mentioned you you have some literature that you brought as you always do.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 03:00

Yes. Yes. Greetings of peace to everyone that's out there. My name is Robert Lilly, but I prefer brother Rob, and welcome, Chaz. Good to see you again.

Chas Moore: 03:10

Glad to be back.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 03:11

Greetings, Jim. Thank you. Greetings to you too, Stacy, and all of our listeners. So I have a a few passages that I wanna read. Reading a book right now called The Miseducation of the Negro by Carter g Woodson.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 03:26

Carter Godwin Woodson, PhD, who was a teacher and instructor. And I'm reading right now, I believe it's chapter one. And he talks about in his book, Education. He talks about the importance of education for the African American community. You know, after the civil war, the the Freedmen's Bureau and whites who were sympathetic to the liberty or liberation of blacks in the South came to the South and they began to institute institutions of learning.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 04:01

They constituted or established institutions of learning. And so many of our original, HBCUs and other public school offerings were the the work of missionaries and those who had an appreciation for freedom, but they did not always understand the true need of the former slave. The the some call African American, some identify as black. And so Carter g Wilson in this book, he talks about why that kind of education, a specific kind of education that relates to the needs and the challenges of the people who are coming out of bondage. So I'm reading chapter four, actually, education under outside control.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 04:56

In the new program, he writes, in the new program of educating the Negro, and this is a term that was historically used to refer to those who today identify as black or African American, in the new program of educating the Negro, what would become of the white teachers of the white race? Excuse me. Of the white teachers of the race? Someone recently inquired. This is a simple question requiring only a brief answer.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 05:23

The remaining few Christian workers who went south not so long after the civil war and established schools and churches to lay the foundation on which we should now be building more wisely than we do, We would honor as a martyred throng, and Athema be upon him who would utter a word derogatory to the record of these heroes and heroines. We would pay high tribute also to unselfish southerners like Haygood, Curry, Ruffner, Northern, and Vance, and to white men of our time who believe that the only way to elevate people is to help them to help themselves. So in this passage, as I've already indicated, mister god I mean, mister, Carl Woodson, excuse me, has has indicated that there were people who understood that this community needed education, and they needed a specific kind of education. He'll go on to elaborate in that further. But in this particular section of the passage, he's talking about those whites who came south, white folk who believed in the freedom that was indicated in the constitution that was at at some point restricted from black folk, but also knew that in order for that freedom to become a reality, there had to be access to education and that education had to be relevant to that people's needs.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 06:54

I'll I'll yield there for any other thoughts or comments that anyone would wanna weigh in.

Stacie Freasier: 06:59

I wanna, first say that, the views expressed here are not necessarily the views of Coop Radio or its board of directors, volunteers, staff, or underwriters.

Jim Crosby: 07:12

The main thing it made me think about and I think I heard this morning that s b two passed last night here in Texas. Is that right?

Stacie Freasier: 07:18

It passed the senate. Okay. So now it's going to the house.

Jim Crosby: 07:22

Yeah. And I just wanted to say, you know Would you

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 07:24

elaborate on s b two for the folk who may not be following politics like that?

Jim Crosby: 07:27

Commonly called the voucher bill, I think. Right? So it's about yeah.

Stacie Freasier: 07:31

It's giving private voucher, vouchers to families to who choose a private school for their kid, which is divesting systematically from public education. So it's a continual chip in a way of that.

Jim Crosby: 07:48

Yeah. And I just wanted to make the connection for people that, this goes back not only to reconstruction post civil war, but to, you know, pre civil war, slavery days in terms of not wanting to educate, you know, certain groups of people.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 08:06

I think it was a crime to to teach a black person or a child to read or to write. Traz, you had any thoughts?

Chas Moore: 08:15

Why y'all looking at me? I mean, again, you know, I think this is, So I'm I'm I would and I'm gonna take a little bit of the context Robert just read from, The Miseducation of a Negro. And what Jim just said, you know, I I think it's still giving, too much power or expectance, to institutions. Right? I I've I've never, in my adult life, have expected any institution, that's been created by the the the American states or any state, government to to do what's right.

Chas Moore: 09:04

Right? I'm not expecting them to educate and teach us about ourselves because they can't even talk and teach us about their own history, right? So, again, you know, I I think this is more, evidence that we need to continue to think outside of the institutional boxes that we to the source, which is community, you know? So yeah, you know, I SB2 passes, cool, but then, like, to me, that means we just need more direct funding from community member to schools. Like, directly.

Chas Moore: 09:40

Right? Like, instead of just expecting your tax dollars to go to the right place, just cut the check to Maplewood Elementary or whatever elementary or middle school or high school your kid goes to an ASD and anywhere really. But, yeah, I I feel like we keep wanting, these governments and institutions to do the right thing when the right thing is, it's anti their existence. Like these two things can't coexist, right? Like, actual education, real educational facts in history, goes against anything that the government wants you to go along with.

Chas Moore: 10:18

Right? So yeah.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 10:22

I have a note. Thank you. Thank you. I have another passage I'd like to read to kinda give some flesh to not flesh, but to add, to accentuate what mister Moore Chaz has just pointed out. So Carter g Woodson in chapter three, he writes, Negro educators of today may have more sympathy and interest in the race than the whites now exploiting Negro institutions as educators, but the former have no more vision than their competitors.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 10:54

The present system under the control of the whites trains the Negro to be white, and at the same time, convinces him of the impropriety or the impossibility of his becoming white. It compels the Negro to become a good Negro for the performance of which his education is ill suited. For the white man's exploitation of the Negro through economic restriction and segregation, the present system is sound and will doubtless continue until this gives place to the saner policy of actual interracial cooperation, not the present farce of racial manipulation in which the Negro is a figurehead. History does not furnish a case of the elevation of a people by ignoring the thought and aspiration of the people thus served. What I like about that writing is that, you know, this book is century well, it's over a century old.

Chas Moore: 11:54

Mhmm.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 11:55

And it it has pertinence even now. I read it first when I was incarcerated. And, you know, just the title itself, The Miseducation of the Negro, even though I didn't call identify myself as a Negro, I knew enough about history to know that that term, that title had been used historically to characterize our people. And today is considered a pejorative. Right?

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 12:17

So it's not something customarily used. You know, walking around calling someone a Negro may get you in trouble. But what I love about what, professor Woodson is saying is that in order for a people to excel, it has to have control of his educational experiences. And it has to have people that invested in that educational experience in such ways that not only are they learning facts, data, information, but that information is a reflection of that people's existence. You know, I know recently you had a press conference.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 12:53

Unfortunately, I was not able to be there, but I believe that from what I read in the in the email related to DEI. What if what if anything does this train of thought, how does it connect with that topic?

Chas Moore: 13:11

Yeah. So we had a press conference yesterday, because, at the MLK festival that that Stacey saw me at where I was almost about to not practice, nonviolence. It was a it was a little situation going on, but, somebody had said, you know what? Like, you've been quiet. And I was just like, well, you know, we've been talking for ten years.

Chas Moore: 13:32

And it's all been the same. Like, it's always the same story all the time. But with that, I also understood that I think in times like this, organizations such as mine, quote unquote leaders like myself should speak up. So we had a press conference basically just, reaffirming what we've been saying over the past ten, fifteen years in which that, yes, the governor may want to attack DEI because he's following his his leader in in in the president. And, yes, we have ice raids here, and, yes, your president is also talking about, literally, like, genocide, like, complete.

Chas Moore: 14:09

Right? He's talking about just those people y'all need to get out of the Gaza Strip.

Jim Crosby: 14:15

Beachfront property.

Stacie Freasier: 14:16

Right. The Riviera Of The Middle East.

Chas Moore: 14:18

Yeah. I saw people saying it was like like, guys a lago. You know what I mean? And and you know, so we just got up yesterday and just reaffirmed that, like, this is this is nothing new. There's no reason to be afraid.

Chas Moore: 14:29

Like, now more than ever, we just need to continue to build beloved community and stop relying on institutions. Right? And again, the the same passage you just read, I think speaks again to the volumes, as to why, it it it it would be foolish, in my opinion, to expect, a government, to fund our resource adequately. Any education system that is teaching truth, that is teaching history, that is teaching, marginalized groups, working class folks, anything that can actually empower themselves because, again, the the system needs working poor people. It needs people that are uneducated.

Chas Moore: 15:10

It needs people to not be empowered. It needs people to be afraid and and live in fear. Like, that's how it lives, you know. So, again, I I for me, this is all and what I've been talking about at least the last three years is I've really gotten to, the principles of abolition is just to like, you know, we don't have to accept that. We can reject it.

Chas Moore: 15:29

And we we should be, now more than ever, focusing on how we show up in in in build community for and with one another. I I hope that what was the answer to that?

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 15:42

Well, I I don't think there was any one of answer. I think, you know, it's a reflection of what you sense in the writing. Mhmm. Yes, miss Stacy?

Stacie Freasier: 15:50

Yep. Just if you're just tuning in, you are listening to nonviolent Austin radio hour here on k00p.org. Thank you for those of you who are listening live from anywhere you may be right now. We stream all our programming, and we are here on the FM airwaves, ninety one point seven FM here in Austin.

Jim Crosby: 16:10

Chester? Yeah. Chaz, I wanted to ask you, maybe we can nudge things forward a little bit, dig a little deeper. It sounded to me when you talked about Maplewood Elementary, for example, maybe a a unique new approach to some kind of public private partnership, with ongoing geographic segregation. And as you pursue a model like that, how do you transcend the problems of of, you know, that the poor areas and poor schools can't afford to do that, you know, whereas others have it anyway?

Chas Moore: 16:54

But but but why can't they afford it? Because like, they can't afford it with the current, system we have in place now, right, with the with with the recapture program and stuff like that.

Jim Crosby: 17:04

Yep.

Chas Moore: 17:05

I I would I would almost bet my bottom dollar that if you, allow the students and communities, around their perspective schools, like, you know, Maplewood is right here. That's why I said it. But I think if you take the people in this area and you, and if Maplewood let them know that we actually need your help and support, I think the community shows up. Because I I think generally most people care about no matter like no matter what side of the aisle you're on. I think we care about education.

Chas Moore: 17:35

I also think more people are open to having healthy, good conversations about the icky parts of history that's now being combated and trying to be erased. Because we also know, at least I'm using Germany as an example to where they talk about, or they used to talk about the Holocaust every day in school. And, you know, that has resulted in, you know, anti Nazi policy to where Elon Musk was, he would not be able to do what he did at the inauguration in Germany. He would have been arrested, right? Or at least held accountable by by the legal system.

Chas Moore: 18:09

And I I I think, I I think a part of that question was operated and I don't think you meant it because I know you, but I think part of that question was framed with this scarcity mindset, that the system also tells us that we, that we have a lot of when when I see nothing but abundance, Right? I see nothing but abundance of opportunity. I see nothing but abundance of resources from my community, to where I think we can make these things happen, but we like, we just have to be willing to try. Like, I I I think, there is gonna be a moment in history within the next four years, and I hope I'm wrong, but I think there's gonna be a moment in history within the next four years where we, the people, are gonna have to decide what is actually acceptable or not. If the governor says, you know, we're we're not funding your school, if you talk about any black history at all, either you're going to succumb to that and be a part of the problem, are you gonna find ways to resist?

Chas Moore: 19:04

And I think resisting resistance calls us to be creative. I think it calls us to lean into one another in ways that we typically don't. And I think it forces us to find, ways to to keep true the principles that we have, which is education. Like the institution may die, right? Like the school district may die.

Chas Moore: 19:23

But the institution of education in in higher learning, conscious learning, community learning, I don't think that will die, right? So and I think we have to be okay with that. You're like, yes, this Roman Empire that is called America is burning as it should. And I think we can either be afraid by the unknown or we can embrace the unknown and look at that as an opportunity to, like, finally get some things right. You know what I mean?

Chas Moore: 19:48

And I I just feel like we we we keep giving so much energy and thought to, like, how we respond to what what what the craziness that the governor is saying, the craziness that's gonna come out the capital, the craziness that's coming out Trump's mouth opportunity to to really lean into one another, right? And and and building these beloved communities that Doctor. King and folks like you all talk about in the program.

Stacie Freasier: 20:12

Yeah, I wanna add to that is that I'm I'm on this wavelength with you. I was thinking about reforestation, and I draw from nature a lot. And I'm thinking, like, the ash is is is fertilizer. And it it from sometimes, it's not just this is another, mindset that is, I think, damaging and why we need to do something different is that you don't just build and build and build and build and grow and grow and grow and scale in all of those words.

Chas Moore: 20:41

Mhmm.

Stacie Freasier: 20:42

Sometimes things die I mean, die in nature to grow something else. And so I'm with you on that. You know, it's painful. And let's come up with community ways of grieving, and let's have you know, there's a school that's struggling right now that, in my life, in my personal life, and, you know, I've been saying, why don't we entertain the idea of having a funeral for this school? And then from it, something else will be born.

Stacie Freasier: 21:11

Maybe it's the same group of people in a different place and but thank you for giving voice to that.

Chas Moore: 21:17

Yeah. You know what I mean? It it like like, death is so much a part of, like, existence. Right? Not just in human form, but, like Stacy said, like, things, things come to an end, good, bad, or indifferent.

Chas Moore: 21:30

And I think we're seeing now, the potential I I I see I think we're seeing two things. I think we're seeing this, really strong fight by Trump and Elon Musk and all these folks that are drinking that juice preserve something that is indeed dying, right? Like this this notion of white supremacy is dying, this notion of heteronormative is, tism is dying, this notion of of of all the things, right? All these systems and institutions that punitive damage when we talk about jails and prisons, right? Even people are waking up to be like, well, this person should be held accountable, but for like, you know, I watched the Instagram story today.

Chas Moore: 22:10

This African American dude robbed the credit union because his daughter needed surgery. Like some John Q type stuff, right? Twenty five years in prison. And the judge had the audacity to say, you sit here and telling me and all these folks are writing me letters saying you're a good person. No, you're a bank robber.

Chas Moore: 22:25

Like, no, that that well, that's not the case. This was a dad, that went in in in I'm sure exhausted all of the options and got desperate, didn't hurt anybody, right? Didn't kill anybody. I don't even think he damaged any property. But he was desperate to help his daughter.

Chas Moore: 22:42

And instead of showing him some love and compassion, twenty five years.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 22:46

I think that's a travesty. I think that's a travesty.

Chas Moore: 22:50

Absolutely. And I, you know, even with, what's the brother name that was just beaten to death? Robert Rooks?

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 22:56

Yes. In New York.

Chas Moore: 22:58

Yeah. Right. Like, I think people are waking up to to to some of these questions that we've formed, that people, abolitionists have formed, police reformers have formed over the over the at least the last decade, twenty, thirty years for sure. I was like, like, what are police actually for, right? So, like, in in right now we see, like, this kind of final stand by Trump, to to preserve the old way of being.

Chas Moore: 23:22

And I also think we see people that believe that he was about something else also realizing like, okay, that's not what we actually wanted. Right? So and and I think we just need to be okay with that. And I think, there's a level of American, exploration and explorerism, that I both, I hold with disgust, but I also hold with, like, you know, bright eyes because, you know, American, exploration is why we wiped out, all indigenous folks and raped and pillaged their land. But also American exploration is why we have advanced technology and advanced medicines and and and went to the moon and all this type of stuff.

Chas Moore: 24:07

Right? And, you know, of course, all the inventions by black Americans, Latino Americans, you know, Chinese Americans, right? So I think we need to embrace that part of the American spirit or American dream, if you will, to to embrace this new world that is coming because I think people all around, this country and the world are waking up to really this idea that the way we've been operating is the same thing that is killing us. In in these ways must die, or will die far sooner than we are supposed to, if we continue to try to preserve them.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 24:44

I I wanna weigh in on that on one thought. Miss, first of all, thank you for your insightful thoughts and commentary. You know, thinking about education in my life, prison was the place where I first became a conscious thinking being. Prior to that, I think I was very reactionary. I was very much shaped by the forces and influences around me.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 25:11

I may have had some degree of original thought somewhere deep down in there, but for the most part, I was a reflection of the things around me. When I went to prison, it forced me to really think what was what was what was this life that I was in possession of, and and what what value did it hold beyond this moment? And that caused me to question almost everything. And I I bring that up because in our educational system, we are taught to be, like, almost automatized. You you learn something.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 25:44

You regurgitated. I I didn't learn what critical thinking was until I was incarcerated. And I remember once when I began to identify that I had some issues with homophobia, it was the realization to me that somebody had implanted a thought in my mind that I never consciously questioned. Yeah. And so I'm afraid of how people are gonna treat me if they assume that I'm like these people that I wanna avoid.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 26:09

And and to and when that when that became clear to me, I realized I'm really governing myself by other people's expectations.

Chas Moore: 26:15

Yep.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 26:16

What a horrible way to live. I wanted and so at that moment, I decided, what does it mean to really be me? Mhmm. Independent of these negative influences. And then I'm not saying that I could be totally influenced less, right, in this world.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 26:30

But I I think for me, when I think about education and I think about my journey, I think it's important for me to really pull at that string. And it's frightening Because, like, on one hand, you know, I know historically, we've had movements that have sought to hold the government accountable for government. But then I asked my question I asked myself the question, what are what are governments for? What are their what are the what is their reason for being? So we should pull at that string and look at the the foundational logic that upholds this idea that, you know, in in European society, there was the belief originally that you were born into your station in life.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 27:09

And that and government was rooted in the notion that you were born into your station, that god had ordained that some will be hewers of wood and some will be totas of water and then some will be kings. So what is so what we have today, this idea that this idea called democracy, but it's at at the expense of what? At the cost of who? Mhmm. Who loses so that we win?

Stacie Freasier: 27:38

I'm reading at night. I picked this up at Alienative Majesty bookstore.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 27:42

Oh, yeah. Good bookstore.

Stacie Freasier: 27:44

I, and that wasn't a call to action FCC because they guess what? They're coming on community radios, NPR. You know? So public radio is a is a forum that is under scrutiny right now too. Anyway, I was at that bookstore with Rumi and I.

Stacie Freasier: 28:02

We go to a bookstore several times a week after school, and we picked up, People's History of the World. And the the forward was by Howard Zinn, which is, a People's Sisters of the United States. If you haven't read it, it's, you know, and the public Zen public education project to this day continues to be relevant in in truth telling. And, you know, I'm reading with him, my six year old, to say, you know, 11,000 years ago, there is evidence that humans of our ancestors. And many of what the systems that we have built are assumptions as human nature.

Stacie Freasier: 28:53

Humans are gonna human. That's actually not science

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 28:56

The social con the social contract. Mhmm. Just the idea that they're Kant, Rousseau. They believed in this notion that that that organically and naturally, we create this social contract. But Charles Mills, he came back and questioned it and said, but you there's no mention in your social contract of race.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 29:16

And yet all of your institutions, all of your history has been built on the idea that your race is superior and all the other races are inferior. And we deserve to rule and you deserve to be ruled. And so he he he upended that entire, you know, trend of thought that existed for so long. And I love your point, and I just simply say and yield to anyone else that has thoughts. You know, for me, learning is about I the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 29:45

And the less cocky and overconfident I'll be and have been. That doesn't mean that I can't find certainties, but what I do believe is that, you know, learning is designed to help me become the best version of myself. And what I experienced in institutions was not designed to do that. It was designed to make me conform.

Stacie Freasier: 30:07

And on that note, we're gonna pause for a little bit of station traffic, but we'll be right back.

Speaker 6: 30:18

Co op would like to thank the following for supporting our thirtieth birthday bash, FDH of Austin, Austin Hearing Aid Center, Prosperity Bank, El Dorado Cafe, Blue Sky Design and Build, Howard and Mary Yancey, Lynn Dobson, and Greg Wooldridge. To learn about the many ways you can support coop, go to k00p.0rg and find the support tab on the banner at the top of the home page.

Speaker 7: 31:00

Looking to start your weekend early? Co ops got you covered. Every first Thursday of the month, co op DJs will be spinning records from seven to 11PM at Community Garden located in the heart of East Austin at 1401 Cedar Avenue, Unit 2. We're bringing vinyl to the people. More information at coop.org or follow us on socials at co op radio.

Speaker 8: 31:32

Join me, Dennis Campa, every Saturday, one to 2PM on Adventures in Sound. We'll hear a variety of music spanning over a century and a half of recorded sound. Everything from early cylinders, hot twenties music, folk rock, thrusters, oddities, and a whole lot more. That's exclusively on Coop Radio, ninety one point seven FM, and k o p dot o r g. Thank you for listening.

Stacie Freasier: 31:54

And thank you for listening to nonviolent Austin radio hour here on 91.7fmk00p.org. Thank you for listening and streaming online, and you can actually pull copies of the show after it airs off of our website, k00p.0rg. So, to recap the first half of this show Mhmm. We're scrutinizing the necessity of institutions. I'm just calling into question what we need.

Stacie Freasier: 32:33

We've talked about Jim, thank you for bringing up, senate bill two that just passed the Texas, Senate going to the House now, and that's private vouchers for school education. So we, talked about school education and and Black History Month. I really appreciate you, bringing in and reminding us of these highly relevant and timely words from, Carter Carter b Woodson. Is that

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 32:59

Carter g, Carter Godwin

Stacie Freasier: 33:01

Carter Godwin Woodson. Yep.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 33:04

Yes.

Jim Crosby: 33:05

I wanna get back to Black History Month, but first, I wanna just kinda do another of my typical Socratic questions. Chaz, I think a month ago, we were talking some about housing, and, you were fairly pessimistic about, you know, affording to buy a house at some point.

Speaker 7: 33:24

Mhmm.

Jim Crosby: 33:26

So apply what you said a while ago about an abundance mindset to that.

Chas Moore: 33:35

That that that that that is very good. I mean but, also, you know, I think I I I look at it like, do I actually need a house? Like, I'm quite good where I am. You know, like, I I I live in a house with three other people, and we we we co, exists, and it's it's it's good. And I I think, because, I'm aware of how other people operate, and I'm aware of what we have been socialized to believe what is success and what you need to have a family.

Chas Moore: 34:13

You know, I and many of us, think that, you know, you need a house in a backyard and all that type of stuff. But, you know, I mean, I'm actually quite good at where I am. So I I think I think the question, or the thought that that I need to have is how am I operating in a scarcity mindset and it that that pessimism I I had about not owning a house on my last conversation is exactly to my own point. Right? I'm I'm making a point about abundance, but I'm also operating in the scarcity mindset that that is constantly beaten into me.

Chas Moore: 34:46

So, but, yeah, I'm thankful to have, you know, the the biggest bedroom and my own bathroom and, roommates and housemates that, you know, are are aligned with with how we, cohabitate. And, I yeah. I'm just I'm, yeah, and I I think I need to look at that with more of an abundant mindset. I have more than enough. I have more than what I need.

Chas Moore: 35:11

Right? I have a closet with a 20 pairs of shoes. I don't really need a house, but I I've I'm battling my own tension with the capitalistic ideas that I need my own house, and I need my own backyard, and I need my own like, right. So so yeah. You know?

Jim Crosby: 35:30

Has the four of you done the math to think about, okay. If if if it would be preferential to own rather than buy, what would it take for the four of us to, have co op housing?

Chas Moore: 35:42

Oh, I mean, I yeah. I think, I think we could take the same rates that everybody's paying our rent and and do that. That's something we have talked about recently, but, I also think we really like the house that we're in right now. It's just a really good location. It's right down the street.

Chas Moore: 35:58

Kinda in the middle of everything, but not too much in the middle of everything. But but, also, I'm good at I I get it. Because what's the difference between rent and a mortgage? You're gonna pay them till you die anyway. Alright?

Chas Moore: 36:07

So just like, I'm good. See you.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 36:11

Well, two things are coming to my mind. First of all, I'd like the fact that capitalism was brought into this because I think a lot of my strivings when I was incarcerated, you know, when you go back and you read history and you read the history of colonialism and imperialism, you know what the meaning of exploitation looks like. And so all of our wealth that we have today, although we have been great innovators, the things we've innovated have been on other people's natural on the backs of other people's labor and natural resources. And so I ask myself often in the midst of this society what, you know, getting ahead, overcoming. Right?

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 36:54

Prospering. What does that mean for me? Who has to lose in order for me to win? And it's a struggle. It's a tension.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 37:00

I don't think it's gonna evaporate just because I adopt a philosophy that, you know, empowers the work that I do, and I too am an abolitionist.

Jim Crosby: 37:09

Mhmm.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 37:09

But I I ask myself, you know, what what does that fit in, like, into this economic system? And so just to your point, on February 26 at the Carver branch library in Austin, Texas, they will be building Austin's Black cooperative movement. I've read the book by, miss miss, who I can't think of her last name, but it's called Collective Courage. Miss Nimbar, She talks about how cooperatives were used after the civil war to empower communities that have been, you know, historically denied access to resources, you know, I e the slaves. And so what does that look like for us today?

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 37:52

And then another point going back a little bit further in our conversation. When I was incarcerated, there were many trains of thought that I tapped into to define my existence as a as a black man and as a person on this earth. One of the first teachers that I came in contact with was Elijah Muhammad, and his refrain, the idea that we must do for self constantly, you know, prevails in my thinking process. You know? What does it mean for me?

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 38:19

What does it mean for us? When he said do for self, he wasn't saying individualism. He was saying as a community, how do we fend for ourselves? Now we know his you know, later on, his student, Malcolm X, El Hajj Malik Shabazz, he went on to participate in politics and comment on politics, whereas Elijah Muhammad himself disdained it and avoided it at all cost, at least publicly. But, you know, again, the tension, how do we reconcile this being in this society?

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 38:49

You know, what is what does it mean for me to do for self, but at the same time, how do I exist in a society dominated by institutions that have governments who rules regulations and controls that that got that that operate in my life on a daily? What does it mean for me to respond to that in ways that honor my humanity and, you know, keep me whole? So that's that's a challenge that I that I struggle with. And going back to s b two, you know, right now, I came from Louisiana. And I learned there that all of the educational systems out there were charter schools.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 39:24

Every single school is a charter school. Is that the direction we're going in?

Jim Crosby: 39:29

And you're gonna tell us more about your time in

Jim Crosby: 39:31

Yeah.

Stacie Freasier: 39:31

You said you can't came from, but be be clear because Okay.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 39:34

Be specific. Yes. Yes. Yes. So I went to I went to I went to, New Orleans to beep with, a a a gentleman that I met some years ago named Ron Chisholm, the founder of the People's Institute for Survival and Beyond, and also to sit at his and the new executive director's feet, doctor Kimberly Chisholm or doctor Kim as we lovingly call her.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 39:57

And it was a blessing because not only did I go and soak up these decades of knowledge that these these progenitors possess, but I got a chance to bring some of my base members from the the local nonprofit organization I work for. I work for grassroots leadership, and we're building a base of impacted people. And so what is we have to get them access to information that can empower their thought processes because oftentimes, you know, you can bring people together, but if they are scattered in the way they see the problem, we're gonna have chaos and confusion. So I went to New Orleans to to sit for an undoing racism workshop. We had about 27 people there, nine people from North Carolina, and, our group here from Austin, and it was amazing.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 40:40

It was amazing to to be in the company of folk who have been doing this work for decades, have impacted hundreds of thousands of people around the country, and are still, you know, making themselves available even at 83. Ron is 83 today, and I don't think he'd mind me saying that. He's 83 years young, and he's still he's still, influencing the next generation, and that that would be me. And I get a chance to pass this information on to others.

Stacie Freasier: 41:09

So this is a good time to to to weave this thread because in two weeks you're going with me, Brother Rob, and four others to Selma, Alabama, to the Selma Center for Nonviolence Truth and Reconciliation and we're gonna be sitting at the feet of doc Bernard Lafayette. And you mentioned right before the show that that connection was surfaced. Right?

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 41:35

Yeah. That was in another relationship. And I just simply say for those that are listening, you know, there were years when when I sat incarcerated, and I often send in my commentary with my journey of imprisonment because that's the fundamental dilemma that I hold. I was born in a country that has criminalized me, even at some points attempted to eradicate my existence. We call ourselves the freest nation on the earth, and yet here I sit today, Although I'm at liberty and I use my words carefully, I am still very much a slave of the state in the sense that my body is owned by the state of Texas.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 42:17

I'm on parole until I'm 81 years of age, which means I'm disenfranchised, which means that I cannot participate in the electoral process that governs my life in this society, that governs all of our lives in this society. And so what does it mean for me to call America my beloved home? Right? What does it mean for me when someone raises the flag? What does it mean for me when I'm told to pledge allegiance?

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 42:41

All of these things become extremely challenging to my my conscience. And so to your point, you know, the the sitting at the feet of these men and women that, we've listed, it is about continuing the long journey of struggle. I came alive in a prison space because I wanted life, and it was the history of our people that brought me that life. What does it mean for me now to be outside of that context, to have this air breathing, crossing through my lungs? What am I gonna do with it?

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 43:18

Is it all for me to acquire wealth and possession, or is it for me to serve and be of use to my fellow man? I would go for the latter. That's the conscience that's in my heart. Again, I wanna mid lift up that, on February 26 at 1PM, Carver Branch Library, August Austin, Texas, building Austin's Black Cooperative Movement. Jim, do you have something you wanna add?

Jim Crosby: 43:50

I've just been thinking the last few minutes about, Stacy and I did a training, what, a couple of weeks ago, just a three hour king in the violence training intro.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 44:01

Mhmm.

Jim Crosby: 44:01

And, is it step three? Step three or four is personal commitment. And part of my Black History Month is is I've waded into about the first hundred pages of maybe a 600 page new biography of John Lewis. He, of course, was college roommates with Bernard Lafayette. And I've just been struck again about their personal commitment.

Jim Crosby: 44:28

At the age of 19, 20, 20 one, first the sit ins and then the freedom rides, getting beat up, you know, threatened with death day by day, and yet they knew that's what they needed to do. Chaz, when you talk about, you know, basically self governance and when I heard you talk at the Capitol yesterday about going away from here and it's not about the rally, but it's about what we do when we leave the rally. So, yeah, I just wanna throw out that phrase personal commitment and and encourage our listeners to think about that in these times.

Stacie Freasier: 45:00

I was meditating on a word coming into the station today because I am also just swimming in this toxicity, right, of of the news feed and the, you know, all of these. And everybody around me. Right? So connecting to the people even if I, you know, do try hard not to internalize any of the major messages or go into that anxiety spiral. By the fact that I'm a feeling human who's online with my heart, I'm suffering around me with all the people who are freaking out.

Stacie Freasier: 45:34

Right? And so the word that I was meditating on is steady. And there's something about steadiness right now in this moment and that my personal commitment and my personal commitment to the philosophy of kinky and nonviolence is affording that steadiness in, what seems to be a a spin up moment of of chaos. And so I wanna ask y'all, like, how are you relating to the idea of being steady or steadfast in this moment?

Chas Moore: 46:09

Yeah. I mean, I I just you know, I mean, I don't know. And people ask me this a lot. I think people, that know I've been, you know, doing this for quite some time. I think they think I'm going crazy, but I always tell them I'm I'm fine.

Chas Moore: 46:26

But because, like, this is, like, this is nothing new. It feels new, but, like, it is not. Like, this is this is just another moment in history that is going to, call us to to reckon with ourselves and our egos and and all these lies that we've been telling ourselves. But, you know, I I I look at I I I look at the news. I read the news, probably not as much as I haven't been keeping up the capital, which I I need to, just to be aware of what's going on.

Chas Moore: 47:00

But, it it never weighs me down. Like, like, even when he's talking about, taking over Gaza, I'm just I think about, how resilient those people have been. And you just you know, a lot of people think this history started, in October, what, 2023? And just like, no. At least people have been fighting for their existence, a very long time.

Chas Moore: 47:26

Right? And, as far as, you know, black folks, I mean, this definitely ain't new to us. And, like, women, it's not new to women. Like, you know, Mexican immigrants is nothing. Muslim immigrants is nothing new.

Chas Moore: 47:37

Right? Trans, queer folks is nothing new. So, I I think I just I I lean heavily on, the not only the bad parts of history. Right? These bad moments that have happened.

Chas Moore: 47:48

Like, we we look at the holocaust, but, like, you also have to look at the fact that people join forces in World War two. For the most part, do the right thing because Hitler was going crazy. Right? Like, you look at, women's suffrage. Like, yes, women didn't have rights, but then women gathered and they fought, and got some because there's still plenty on the table.

Chas Moore: 48:09

But, so, like, these are just moments in history that invites you. I I I would say to to be a part of the right side. You know? So I I mean, I don't know. I just look at it as an opportunity to, continue to, you know, speaking of King, to to pay my rent on Earth by doing service for others.

Chas Moore: 48:30

Right? Because I I me personally, I think those I think that's why we're here. I think we're here to, to figure out all this together, and and I think it's been very humbling to me to really own the truth that, me alone, I can't do it and I won't do it. And then also, like, my fellow neighbor, my fellow human is my greatest resource. Right?

Chas Moore: 48:55

So, and and that's hard in itself to say it. Right? Because, you know, I I get my socialist friends, that, you know, eat the rich and all these chants, but at the same time, I'm with Dave Chappelle. Like, I can't be with people cheering on anybody getting their house burned down by the LA fires, right? Like, as as bad as we show sympathy for people in impoverished communities in LA, I think when you have a disaster like fire, I don't care if you're in Malibu or Downtown LA, like I like, you're my neighbor in that moment, then we can, you know, hopefully have some class discussions and and and, you know, ideology discussions later.

Chas Moore: 49:37

But, yeah, like Build back smaller. Right. Like, I I just yeah. Right. But I to me, it's anti, the things that the movement has been talking about to cheer the downfall of people that just so happen to be on the other side of the aisle.

Chas Moore: 49:53

Right? Like, do I think Trump should be president? Absolutely not. Do I think he should be assassinated? Absolutely not.

Chas Moore: 49:59

Right? Like, because that that that then goes against my own, nonviolent. Although, you know, I almost stumbled last Monday, but, that that goes against my nonviolent theology. And it it goes against my idea that because also somebody has been impacted by the legal system. Right?

Chas Moore: 50:15

I have to give, Trump and the Elans of the world a chance for redemption. Right? No matter no matter how long it may take them. Right? But I have to assume and and hope that, even in Elon, the person that has been really challenging that thought of me the most because he he he moves and and and operates in a way that's very, inhumane to me, just very kinda cold in a way that I don't think, I've ever seen.

Chas Moore: 50:41

Like, even with Hitler, like and I'm not by any ways justifying anything Hitler has done, to our Jewish brothers and sisters. But, when you read his backstory, just like, okay, I can I can kinda see this a little bit? I can empathize with I can better understand, the pain point that started all this, evil. Right? But with Elon, man, just like, you know, you you had a pretty good life, and you just choose to seem to be cold to people for for some reason and, still wanting to to show empathy to him and still, trying to do that while not, you know, seeming to, like, be a bootlicker or anything like that.

Chas Moore: 51:17

And I I think that's a that's a that's a huge struggle, and it's a huge part of conflict for the movement ourself because we too seem to be falling in a trap of us versus them. Right? It's really us versus people that don't realize that they're part of The Us.

Stacie Freasier: 51:32

So But

Chas Moore: 51:33

there is no them.

Stacie Freasier: 51:34

Speaking of us, you are on co op community radio. We, are nine minutes left on this show.

Chas Moore: 51:40

Never enough time.

Stacie Freasier: 51:41

Ninety one point seven FM, k o o t dot k o o p dot org. And, this is we had our thirtieth birthday. This is a community owned and operated. We have a cooperative model. This is a cooperative, this station.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 51:56

And I'm proud to be a part of it.

Stacie Freasier: 51:58

I'm I'm we are doing it.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 52:02

I wanna answer your question. Thank you. And and I wanna emphasize that, you know, I do really appreciate the idea of having a place where my voice and the values that I represent in this voice with this voice can be brought broadcast or projected to others. Quickly, I wanna mention that, on February 11 at 06:30PM, Tuesday at 1000 East Eleventh Street, Fourth Floor, Austin, Texas, Emmy award winning documentarian, community activist, and cofounder of Ssuru for solidarity, doctor Satsuki Inna, the author of the her new book, Poet and the Silk Girl, explores her family's experience of unjust incarceration during World War two, something particularly relevant given the nation's conversations about mass detention camps and invoking the Alien Enemies Act today. So if you're interested, there'll be two opportunities.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 53:03

One will be February 11, and the next one will be February 12 from four to 6PM at the University of Texas Law School, t n h point two point one one one, Sheffield Massey room, in conversation with Satsuki Inna from World War two Japanese incarceration to family detention. There's an opportunity.

Stacie Freasier: 53:26

Thank you for those offerings and invitations. We have a couple of nonviolent Austin opportunities to gather. At 04:00 every Friday, there is a weekly vigil that we hold outside the Capitol, Eleventh in Congress, and you are welcome to just roll up and join us and bring whatever anti militarism, climate justice, anti oppression, sign, literature, bring your voice, and we we do that religiously.

Jim Crosby: 53:58

At peace and justice and come sing.

Stacie Freasier: 54:00

That's right. Always always singing.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 54:02

Joy is revolutionary.

Stacie Freasier: 54:04

That's right. On Sunday, February 23, from 03:30 to 05:30, nonviolent Austin is holding a freedom feast, Selma Rent Party. So we are raising this money and going as volunteers and over to Selma and learning training on at the feet of doctor Lafayette to bring it back and to keep to start certifying people here in Austin on level one king and nonviolence train, training with our sibling center, the Selma Center. And so really, really need everybody to turn out to that. 2505 Princeton Drive.

Stacie Freasier: 54:41

You're invited and interested. And so 2505 Princeton Drive. We have an inbox, an email box. So if you're listening right now, you need to get a hold of us and you have chose chosen to go off of Facebook, which we are on and that's our strongest group is, right now is Nonviolent Austin. It's public group on Facebook.

Stacie Freasier: 55:00

So you can find us there by typing Nonviolent Austin into Facebook. But you can also email info@NonviolentAustin.org. We have a link tree. We have a website spinning up soon, but it's info@nonviolentaustin.org, and we can send you more details about that Selma rent party that's happening. Chaz, what about you?

Stacie Freasier: 55:21

Do you have anything you wanna share of that's coming up?

Chas Moore: 55:24

I actually do. We're doing something with Vocal Texas next.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 55:29

On the thirteenth. Yeah. They have a good training on the twelfth, and I believe there will be a

Chas Moore: 55:34

Well, but the they don't wanna talk about the thirteenth publicly. But the twelfth, which is at Cherrywood Center Mhmm. Yeah. I won't even have time to pull it up.

Stacie Freasier: 55:43

Okay. How do well, okay. Folks who

Chas Moore: 55:45

It'll be it'll be it'll be on our website some point today.

Stacie Freasier: 55:49

Okay. And your website?

Chas Moore: 55:50

Is austinjustice.org.

Stacie Freasier: 55:52

Austin justice Org.

Chas Moore: 55:54

For people that, you know, for people that may be interested. Not telling you to go. Not telling you to do nothing. But if you wanna find more information, that is a place that you can go. Wwaustinjustice.org.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 56:03

And if I could just close on a note of answering your question, what do I what am I doing to be steady? That was what you asked. Yeah. I would just simply say to to Chaz's point, you know, this is not anything new for me. I feel like I was born into this kind of social and racial turmoil.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 56:22

And so I have just kept doing what I have been doing for the last twenty five years, and that is evolving, learning, you know, reforming after error and and and and standing up in my truth. As long as I remain committed to that, when I when I yield to the fears, when I give in to the worries and the doubts, that's when I falter and that's when I go backwards. When I remain true to what I know in my heart is my reality, even if it's scary, that's where my power that's where my power lies. And so I just encourage those out there who are in a moment of uncertainty, find your truths and stand firm in it.

Chas Moore: 57:04

Yeah. And I think I think my last thing is, just I just wanna remind people, like, I know things seem scary and unprecedented, but but they are not. Like like, this is just like a movie. We've seen these sequels in in in part threes and part fours, every every time. Right?

Chas Moore: 57:24

Like, this is just another moment in history where people think, that that peep that other people don't matter, that things don't matter. But if we stay true to to ourselves, if we stay true to the idea of community, stay true, and steadfast in in in building beloved communities, we'll be alright. Like, there are very few movies in human history to where the bad guy wins. Right? So I think our chances are okay.

Chas Moore: 57:53

We just have to keep fighting, keep fighting, keep resisting, keep fighting, and most importantly, keep showing up and keep loving your neighbors.

Stacie Freasier: 58:00

Thank you. And, we have three shows left in this season, y'all. This has been our first season of nonviolent Austin radio hour. And, if you're digging what we're doing here, let's keep it going. Let us know.

Stacie Freasier: 58:14

And, next month's show is March 6, and brother Rob and I will be in Alabama. So we're gonna need to either get creative or, Jim, you're holding down the show.

Jim Crosby: 58:25

John, man.

Stacie Freasier: 58:25

Do you wanna come again? Yeah.

Robert Tyrone Lilly: 58:27

You know,

Chas Moore: 58:28

I am I'm part of the team now. That's

Jim Crosby: 58:31

what I'm thinking.

Stacie Freasier: 58:32

Yeah. That's what I'm thinking too.

Jim Crosby: 58:34

Wow.

Stacie Freasier: 58:34

Jim, what did you what did you come in on, music wise? And then what are you taking us out on?

Jim Crosby: 58:39

That was satisfied, which, it took me a long time to get these lyrics because I rewrote them from John Hurt satisfied, which goes, satisfied tickled too, old enough to marry you. I'm satisfied. He's gonna bring you back. And it goes kinda bawdy from there. But, anyway, I would I would tend to start out that way when I meant to sing that song I sang y'all.

Jim Crosby: 58:58

But, let's close. Was it did it stay strong? What did you say? Stay steady?

Stacie Freasier: 59:03

Well, I said stay steady. You see, you you've written my my favorite word, love.

Chas Moore: 59:08

Yes. Stay strong. Keep loving. Yeah. Keep resisting.

Jim Crosby: 59:11

I was gonna close with our old standby, which is in accord with that. We shall not be moved. Sing along, brother Rob. Mhmm.

Jim Crosby: 59:32

We shall not be moved. Well, we shall not. We shall not be moved.